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Post by Audrada Rôibeardét on Nov 20, 2019 18:02:37 GMT -6
I'm clearly Talossan. Why the hell do I have to vote and/or fill out the census?!
I think it's bullshit. Yeah, I said 'bullshit'. Freedom of speech.
Damn it! I need to vent!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 20, 2019 18:40:31 GMT -6
Because otherwise there would be no way to get off the citizens' roll even if you were actually, physically deceased.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 20, 2019 19:15:45 GMT -6
You use this phrase “freedom of speech”, but I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 20, 2019 19:21:57 GMT -6
On another note: yes, you are Talossan. Being Talossan, however, comes with certain civic responsibilities, such as supporting this country by participating in the elections, or at the very least by keeping your contact information up-to-date so that the Chancery can get in touch with you, if need be.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Nov 20, 2019 21:45:34 GMT -6
I can agree with your complaint if we frame these requirements as a method to enforce that only "active citizens" are allowed to be Talossan.
But, as Miestra points out, without some method of pruning, we wouldn't even be able to remove dead people from the rolls, so there are useful reasons for it.
Every country and/or nation has some form of compulsory census. I don't think ours is an unreasonable burden.
On Epic's point. Nah, I don't agree that voting is a civic responsibility. A civic right, yes, but a civic duty, no. We should be allowed the freedom to be politically indifferent or apathetic without consequence. Plus, not caring about or being interested enough in politics to vote does not diminish nationality or one's national identity.
An alternative to the current system could be to adopt an electoral roll separate from the citizenship roll. To be able to vote you would need to register for each election (or for every x number of elections), but with zero requirement to do so. While to remain on the citizenship rolls you would need to return a census every so often. I might actually draft that up as a Bill and ask Parliament what it thinks of adopting such a system.
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125 
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Nov 21, 2019 5:09:11 GMT -6
You use this phrase “freedom of speech”, but I do not think it means what you think it means. It's becoming a bit of a trend on Wittenberg as of late. |
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Nov 21, 2019 5:37:27 GMT -6
On Epic's point. Nah, I don't agree that voting is a civic responsibility. A civic right, yes, but a civic duty, no. We should be allowed the freedom to be politically indifferent or apathetic without consequence. Plus, not caring about or being interested enough in politics to vote does not diminish nationality or one's national identity. Luckily the voting system gives you the option of voting PRESENT. |
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 6:23:18 GMT -6
I'm clearly Talossan. Why the hell do I have to vote and/or fill out the census?! I agree with you. There should be no required work to remain a citizen. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 21, 2019 9:20:34 GMT -6
You use this phrase “freedom of speech”, but I do not think it means what you think it means. It's becoming a bit of a trend on Wittenberg as of late. That must be U.S.-American influence. How horrendous. |
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 11:00:20 GMT -6
It's becoming a bit of a trend on Wittenberg as of late. That must be U.S.-American influence. How horrendous. Out of curiosity, what's your beef with how it was used in this thread? It seemed exactly appropriate to me. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 21, 2019 12:18:06 GMT -6
That must be U.S.-American influence. How horrendous. Out of curiosity, what's your beef with how it was used in this thread? It seemed exactly appropriate to me. “Freedom of speech” refers to one’s ability to say what one wants without governmental, i.e. public, prosecution and repercussions. It does not give someone a free pass to be crass, or exempt one from backlash, admonishment, disagreement, or dislike. It also does not allow one to use inappropriate language without being berated. Basically, “freedom of speech” does not apply to the Cort of Public Opinion, nor the Cort of Civil Law. It is not a “get-out-of-criticism”–card, and it makes no sense to use it here. It would be like me saying: “I BROKE MY VASE! DAMN IT! YES, I SAID DAMN. FREE SPEECH, WHATCHU GON DO BOUT IT?” |
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Post by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h on Nov 21, 2019 12:56:42 GMT -6
I'm clearly Talossan. Why the hell do I have to vote and/or fill out the census?! I agree with you. There should be no required work to remain a citizen. There is a difference between being inactive and wholly disinterested. A completed 'census form' from an inactive tells us they still want to do Talossa. The lack thereof within the bounds of law tells us said inactive has no desire to do Talossa whatsoever. Hence, we can safely strike them from the roll until such time they reappear. To fill out a simple and well-put-together 'census form' takes, perhaps, ten seconds. It is not an unreasonable thing to ask of any citizen, lest we have on the rolls a thousand people, three-fourths of whom have moved on from Talossa in one way or another. |
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 13:32:43 GMT -6
Out of curiosity, what's your beef with how it was used in this thread? It seemed exactly appropriate to me. “Freedom of speech” refers to one’s ability to say what one wants without governmental, i.e. public, prosecution and repercussions. It does not give someone a free pass to be crass, or exempt one from backlash, admonishment, disagreement, or dislike. It also does not allow one to use inappropriate language without being berated. Basically, “freedom of speech” does not apply to the Cort of Public Opinion, nor the Cort of Civil Law. It is not a “get-out-of-criticism”–card, and it makes no sense to use it here. It would be like me saying: “I BROKE MY VASE! DAMN IT! YES, I SAID DAMN. FREE SPEECH, WHATCHU GON DO BOUT IT?” ...but we had a big fight about how some kinds of language, when abused frequently or with intensity, could result in a suspension of an ability to post. Like, I get what you're saying, but her use of the phrase in a context when she's using language that could result in hypothetical sanctions seems spot-on. It seems like you're bending over backwards to interpret it to refer to a freedom from being criticized for using the language. |
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 13:45:40 GMT -6
I agree with you. There should be no required work to remain a citizen. There is a difference between being inactive and wholly disinterested. A completed 'census form' from an inactive tells us they still want to do Talossa. The lack thereof within the bounds of law tells us said inactive has no desire to do Talossa whatsoever. Hence, we can safely strike them from the roll until such time they reappear. To fill out a simple and well-put-together 'census form' takes, perhaps, ten seconds. It is not an unreasonable thing to ask of any citizen, lest we have on the rolls a thousand people, three-fourths of whom have moved on from Talossa in one way or another. It seems to me that I should be able to step back entirely from civic engagement and be free from consequences. I understand that's not the current law or norm, but I think the census bit we added a while ago is only an improvement on a lousy status quo. The way you phrase it seems a bit misleading, after all -- notice how you suggest that they are struck from the rolls "until such time they reappear"... but if they do reappear, they're no longer a Talossan and have to reimmigrate! I agree it's not unreasonable to ask people to fill out a Census, but I do think it is unreasonable to eject them from the country for failing to respond. I hope that will one day be changed. There's no particular reason we can't flag citizens as "active" or "inactive" using the same system. People should be allowed to be Talossa even when they're not doing Talossa. |
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 21, 2019 13:53:48 GMT -6
Two issues:
1) the institution of the Census, as partially replacing "three strikes" is to make sure we still have your contact details. There is no point being a citizen if the State and your fellow citizens have no idea how to contact you; you might as well be deceased otherwise. I would have personally preferred the Census replacing voting altogether, but then some people threw a tantrum about that, so we kept both options. If someone can suggest a way that we can make sure that everyone keeps their contact details updated, without threatening loss of citizenship in the default, I crave to hear it.
2) we differ from other nations in requiring continued civic engagement to keep citizenship, true. I suppose that makes it a Peculiarist initiative.
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