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Post by Eðo Grischun on Nov 24, 2019 17:50:35 GMT -6
I agree with Miestra, citizenship with full citizenship rights should require up to date contact info. It's more than just a slimmed down census. It's the least someone can provide to verify they actually exist and can be reached when necessary.
I'm going to go derivatist on this. Everywhere, just everywhere, requires this. For me to take part in UK elections the goverment demands my contact details are up to date on the voters roll. It's technically electoral fraud if I manage to vote with false details. An old address or whatever.
Now, I like the idea behind 10 years, but it's still not enough. I don't know the current status of people like Dan L. and Lord Q. But, they should be able to come and go as they please. If Dan L. decided to show face at retirement age years from now then he shouldn't have to go through the naturalization process again. Nobody should. Removing people's status as an officially counted Talossan because they didn't get in touch once in a while is petty and perverse.
Again, I think having two levels of citizenship would be the ideal solution. A register of Talossan Nationality alongside a register of voting citizens. Both would allow you to be recognised as Talossan, would allow Witt access, would provide legal protections, but only one would allow voting and holding office. Instead of 3 strikes to exile, it would be keep your details up to date and verified to keep your right to franchise or to hold office. Then it's just a simple registration procedure each election, or every 3, or every whatever. It satisfies the security reasons behind not having dead people or sock puppets on the voters roll. It allows people to completely ignore elections if they want but still be fully involved, or not, in other aspects of Talossa.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Nov 24, 2019 18:07:05 GMT -6
I could even support an ID requirement for the full voting register
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 24, 2019 19:05:26 GMT -6
In point of fact, it is completely fine to have no contact information with the government throughout every state in America. You might be right about other places and the UK in particular, but if I decided to go live in a cabin in the woods, there is nothing at all wrong with that here. If I wanted to vote, of course I would need to supply a valid address, but that's different.
Your suggestion parallels strongly the first one I made in this regard, which is that we just flag citizens as active or inactive, rather than keeping them in the country or ejecting them. It would require virtually no work, since we would just relabel the stuff on the database. In just a few minutes we would solve both problems forever... We would have a good idea of who is an active citizen but we wouldn't be penalizing anybody for wanting to be left alone.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 24, 2019 19:52:10 GMT -6
Again, I have to remind people how KR1 ran things.
By 2000, there was a large voting block who were only contactable by Ben, and only interested in hearing his version of things in Talossa and carrying out his electoral bidding. His father, his old high-school teachers, etc.
I never want to be back in a situation where someone gets a vote in Talossa's election who not only takes no interest in the affairs of the country, but is not contactable by other citizens - except perhaps by 1 or 2. I suppose there's a principled argument to be made that such people deserve a vote too. But that would lead to any political party with half-a-brain collecting "bogus citizens" who could stay on the rolls forever as pure voting fodder.
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Post by Audrada Rôibeardét on Nov 24, 2019 20:09:05 GMT -6
You wouldn't have voting fodder if a person was listed as 'non-citizen Talossan' on the rolls. They wouldn't have a vote to use. And if someone tried to use that person as a bogus vote, that would be voter fraud.
I like a two-tier system. Sign me up!
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 24, 2019 20:16:24 GMT -6
I'm confused, Miestra. It seems like you're describing a state of affairs that already exists.
As I recall, a large number of people cannot be contacted by anyone other than the Chancery, and many of them don't visit Witt and have little interest in Talossa. Unless this has changed since the last time I was a party leader, the list of people who have not opted-in to political emails is pretty substantial. These folks cannot be contacted by other citizens, except maybe by one or two. I assume your party has some sort of party records to contact party members, so it's hard to imagine that your party -- the largest party -- doesn't have some overlap there with these citizens, who are otherwise incommunicado. As you reckon it, aren't they therefore your "pure voting fodder?"
Maybe I just didn't understand some aspect of that, since it's pretty complicated.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Nov 24, 2019 20:53:21 GMT -6
In point of fact, it is completely fine to have no contact information with the government throughout every state in America. You might be right about other places and the UK in particular, but if I decided to go live in a cabin in the woods, there is nothing at all wrong with that here. If I wanted to vote, of course I would need to supply a valid address, but that's different. That's what I meant. Probably I didn't word it clear enough. To be on the voter's roll requires up to date info. Anybody can go off the grid if they want, yeah, but it usually comes at the cost of losing your vote (and possibly a bit of hassle from the inland revenue). But, there's more than just those two camps. We also have the "active" citizen who, for whatever reason, does not want to take part in elections, even to vote present. Then the "actives" who don't want to fill out a census, ever. If we had a citizen who, for whatever reason, didn't take part in elections and didn't return a census, but that same citizen posted on Witt a couple of times per week or released a monthly newspaper, is it fair to label them as "inactive"? I guess what I propose isn't too far away from what you suggest in practice. Indeed, database flags might be the easiest way for the Chancery to implement such a change; it doesn't need to involve two actually separate registers or db's, just two different statuses, but I don't like the labels "active" and "inactive". It's not really about activity levels. I don't know what the nomenclature should be, but something like 'non-voting citizen/\voting citizen' or "Talossan National/\Talossan Citizen" or "Permanent Resident of Talossa/\Citizen of Talossa" are better descriptors than 'active/\inactive'. We would just need to decide what difference the two tiers have between them. Personally, I think T1 should be full Witt access, the right to display Arms, protections from the CoR&F, "employment" rights (say, work as a journo for a paper), NO voting rights, NO holding public office, no requirement to keep contact details up to date, return a census, etc (a la, live in a cabin in the woods). T2 would have voting rights and ability to seek/hold office, but comes with the requirement to return a census every so often (I'd say sooner than every 10 years though). I would say that a verifiable email is enough (PSC codes) for voting rights. I don't mind if real ID becomes required to hold high office.
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Post by Audrada Rôibeardét on Nov 24, 2019 21:15:50 GMT -6
I would give up my vote. I don't use it anyway, unless I'm forced to. I have no interest in running for office. It's not my thing. It's your thing and, I know I don't say it enough, I do appreciate what politicans do. I think it's excessive at times but that's for another debate...I mean conversation.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Nov 24, 2019 21:29:14 GMT -6
I would give up my vote. I don't use it anyway, unless I'm forced to. I have no interest in running for office. It's not my thing. It's your thing and, I know I don't say it enough, I do appreciate what politicans do. I think it's excessive at times but that's for another debate...I mean conversation. And, I want to see more people like you. Well, not so much people that don't want to vote, but I respect that position. But, I do want to see more and more people in the Nation that are not politicians. I don't want Talossa to be a nation of politicians and lawyers. Politicians should make up a small part of the community, with the majority being just normal people doing cool and fun stuff.
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Post by Audrada Rôibeardét on Nov 24, 2019 21:36:32 GMT -6
I'm a...fairly normal person and I've been known to do cool or fun stuff. Never cool and fun. No one can live at that speed.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 24, 2019 21:42:24 GMT -6
For a long time, there hasn't been a lot of fun stuff to do. Not a lot of things open for just anyone to join -- or at least not the kinds of things most people want to join. But that's changing! Join the Zouaves!
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Nov 24, 2019 21:56:24 GMT -6
For a long time, there hasn't been a lot of fun stuff to do. Not a lot of things open for just anyone to join -- or at least not the kinds of things most people want to join. But that's changing! Join the Zouaves! I'll join if Lüc da Schir joins.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 24, 2019 21:58:59 GMT -6
The demand to "do stuff in Talossa" without getting involved in politics is precisely why I've been so big on promoting the Royal Civil Service. Sadly, getting non-political people who actually want to do work rather than get a funny hat and a fancy title for doing what they wanted to anyway is low.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 25, 2019 5:25:30 GMT -6
It does take some motivating, to be sure. But speaking as someone with some small success under my belt in this department, in terms of the paper, it's definitely possible.
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