Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 21, 2019 20:30:54 GMT -6
... this is the first I've heard of this. Exactly why are these Talossans "clandestine"?
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Post by Iason Bitxichë Taiwos on Nov 21, 2019 20:49:44 GMT -6
Maybe we know some folks who want to join. They just don't want to get on the internet to do it. Maybe some don't have internet and can't afford it. Seems like maybe Talossan citizenship is only for rich people who can afford internet. Some of us don't like that fact. Maybe some of us can see the innate Talossanity in some folks, and would like to welcome them into our community wether they can access Witt or not. We can vouch for them. You shouldn't have to have money, or internet access to be able to become a Talossan.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 21:13:18 GMT -6
There's a couple of hundred Talossans, of whom maybe forty are active members of any Talossan community. There have been local enclaves from time to time since the social center shifted away from the GTA (ie. since Cybercits started to dominate), probably most notably in Colorado. It's good to hear that another is developing in Ohio. I wasn't aware. Tell us about it.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 21, 2019 22:20:25 GMT -6
Seems like maybe Talossan citizenship is only for rich people who can afford internet. Wait. Maybe I'm missing something massive in the socio-economics of Ohio, but you have friends who literally can't afford any Internet access? Not even on their phones? Where you live, only "rich" people get on the Internet? Is this Ohio or Burkina Faso? Also, please don't do this "maybe... hypothetically..." thing. It sounds passive-aggressive and whiny. If these people exist, I am delighted to hear of it. This is precisely why the current Government started La C'hronicâ. I hope you print that out and give that to them.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Nov 21, 2019 22:21:23 GMT -6
There's a couple of hundred Talossans, of whom maybe forty are active members of any Talossan community. There have been local enclaves from time to time since the social center shifted away from the GTA (ie. since Cybercits started to dominate), probably most notably in Colorado. It's good to hear that another is developing in Ohio. I wasn't aware. Tell us about it. There was (and still is) supposed to be an article in La S'chinteia about this, but I haven't had the time to write a proper article about it yet.
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Nov 21, 2019 22:47:48 GMT -6
You use this phrase “freedom of speech”, but I do not think it means what you think it means. It's becoming a bit of a trend on Wittenberg as of late. Quasi-Government run forum. Freedom of speech means the government can't prosecute you. You, on the other hand, can just ignore and move on.
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Nov 21, 2019 23:31:16 GMT -6
Saying Witt is not Talossa is nonsensical. Of course it's Talossa. Its new iteration will become Talossa. Why? Simple, it's our virtual Talossa.
I can walk on a street in Washington, DC with a poster containing every "profane" word in English. The government can't touch me. People can confront me and call me names. Freedom of speech doesn't mean others have to listen or like what you have to say. Similarly, this part of Witt is sorta the town square for Talossa. The Government makes announcements; private citizens make announcements; issues are raised, discussed, and debated; people brainstorm; occasionally come to complain. It's the central location that is our Main Street.
Similarly, Witt hosts the actual places where our institutions meet. Wittetiquette has no authority in the Ziu or hopper boards. Suspending a profile of an MZ is literally to prevent them from doing their job.
Provincial boards are microcosms of the same.
If you start suspending people's accounts to regulate language, you're effectively expelling them from Talossan life. This is grossly inOrganic. How can anyone meaningfully engage in Talossan life without engaging in Witt?
I don't think the OP used "freedom of speech" to mean Epiq had to approve the use of "bullshit." Only that it could be used.
At the end of the day, Wittetiquette is not law. And is being used to silence debate simply because someone wants to impose their morals on others.
But that's slightly permissible in some of the forums here because not all are really intended for public use (think college of arms; going in there to talk about how confusing the end to the Man in the High Castle is just as inappropriate as using profanity). The areas specifically aimed at public use or to host state organs required under the Organic Law are different. The hopper is meant for everyone, including non MZs, to debate legislation. I'd say that all of it is entitled to parliamentary imminuity. The Ziu is different--non MZs posting their well reasoned thoughts in there, uninvited, is highly improper. Someone using profane language, in a debate in the capacity as an MZ, gets immunity. It's a state organ. The Corts get to control who gets to speak in their slice of Witt.
But here, in this forum, it's the main Street, the town square. At the end of the day, it still all comes down to a bunch of victorians desiring to control language. And that is what is being proposed--control of language. Well, that's doubleplusungood. And really, who gets to decide what words are offensive? Bullshit is not offensive or even a bad word where I live.
Once the new forum that is state run is operational, Talossa needs to examine how forums play into free speech in other countries. For instance, in the US, public schools do not have to allow certain types of speech, but if it permits one viewpoint, it must permit them all. The forum here on And if the Government is providing the town square, the Main Street, the primary meeting place for its citizens to engage, well, there shouldn't be restrictions on speech. I don't see how you can say you believe in free speech but only if it doesn't offend you.
Now, of course, there's still some extremes, like "fighting words," "obscenity [think extreme porn]" or "incitement to violance."
At the end of the day, there aren't easy answers. Of course someone who posts profane language can simply be ostracized, ignored, and they will eventually go away, much like real life. People don't have to listen to them and can simply block them. It's that simple. You don't need to censor them to get it to stop.
All of this to say--Witt is the heart of Talossa. Free speech was not used here as a "you can't challenge me on my language" but "the admins can't edit my post." And frankly, the entire discussion on the topic just shows how dangerous this path of Talossan newspeak is when suddenly bullshit is problamatic.
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Nov 22, 2019 4:41:29 GMT -6
It's becoming a bit of a trend on Wittenberg as of late. Quasi-Government run forum. Freedom of speech means the government can't prosecute you. You, on the other hand, can just ignore and move on. For what it's worth, I didn't mean to say that the use of the word "bullshit" was problematic. I rarely object to profanity, although as you can attest, I tend to prefer that the political discourse remains civil.
What seemed weird to me is that, in the span of a few days, "freedom of speech" was used by two people, one the polar opposite of the other, to justify what they were saying as if the bad government was going to curbstomp them for their opinions.
Audrada shared a totally legit opinion, which I don't agree with but is not anything outlandish, and then used "freedom of speech" to justify saying it's "bullshit". Mr. Rap Battle clutched his pearls and called for free speech at the first criticism of his manifesto.
Pardon the Euroview, but this looks like much ado about nothing.
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Nov 22, 2019 4:51:46 GMT -6
Oh, wow, I should have read this night's posts before answering that. What a rollercoaster!
Iason, if it's true there is a whole community of culturally-but-not-legally Talossan people out there, then this is the first time I'm hearing of this. I had no qualms with the current citizenship law, but please understand that if issues are not arised, then how are people meant to know there's a problem going on that's worth addressing?
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Nov 22, 2019 6:05:04 GMT -6
Quasi-Government run forum. Freedom of speech means the government can't prosecute you. You, on the other hand, can just ignore and move on. For what it's worth, I didn't mean to say that the use of the word "bullshit" was problematic. I rarely object to profanity, although as you can attest, I tend to prefer that the political discourse remains civil. What seemed weird to me is that, in the span of a few days, "freedom of speech" was used by two people, one the polar opposite of the other, to justify what they were saying as if the bad government was going to curbstomp them for their opinions. Audrada shared a totally legit opinion, which I don't agree with but is not anything outlandish, and then used "freedom of speech" to justify saying it's "bullshit". Mr. Rap Battle clutched his pearls and called for free speech at the first criticism of his manifesto. Pardon the Euroview, but this looks like much ado about nothing.
Fair enough. I didn't know about the other instance... Actually, I don't know what you're talking about (and I kinda don't want to. Ignorance is bliss).
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Ieremiac'h Ventrutx
Former Senator of Florencia ~ Citizen of Talossa
Posts: 990
Talossan Since: 3-1-1997
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Post by Ieremiac'h Ventrutx on Nov 22, 2019 6:49:34 GMT -6
I'm clearly Talossan. Why the hell do I have to vote and/or fill out the census?! I think it's bullshit. Yeah, I said 'bullshit'. Freedom of speech. Damn it! I need to vent! Vent away! I have held that the 3X law is immoral as well, I have lost a lot of friends some I am STILL in contact with simply because they had enough of the Talossan "Politics as usual" Funny that I can go to Talossa and meet with Cestours that have no clue they are even Talossan. One phone call and I am meeting in Talossa... I NEVER think of Witt as Talossa because I can have the Haxh, I have seen our beautiful Kingdom with my own eyes. My wish is that others could do that as well. WHEN I take the effort to leave Talossa, it won't be by three strikes, they will have to hang me from the gallows... ...or I will "vent" and walk away.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 22, 2019 6:54:41 GMT -6
I find it hard to believe that free speech absolutism really goes as far as has been suggested. On the new Witt, does anyone really want no rules governing public conduct at all? We're a small community, but if we ever go back to expanding instead of shrinking, we're going to see serious problems in that case. We would be a captive audience for multi-level marketers and scammers, for one. In a community of forty active folks, we all know enough to ignore Tariq Zubair's scams -- but it doesn't take a much bigger community before he finds a mark or two. Or Talossa has had fascist roots back in the day, thanks to the weird obsessions of youth -- is it hard to imagine a neo-Nazi taking a shine to a place with a province once named after Mussolini and posting Turner Diaries excerpts?
Every public square in the world has laws governing behavior. Public intoxication, disturbing the peace, advertising laws, and the like. Before we discard our equivalents, people should think about the alternatives.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on Nov 22, 2019 7:14:24 GMT -6
we all know enough to ignore Tariq Zubair's scams What did I miss?
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Nov 22, 2019 9:51:02 GMT -6
I find it hard to believe that free speech absolutism really goes as far as has been suggested. On the new Witt, does anyone really want no rules governing public conduct at all? We're a small community, but if we ever go back to expanding instead of shrinking, we're going to see serious problems in that case. We would be a captive audience for multi-level marketers and scammers, for one. In a community of forty active folks, we all know enough to ignore Tariq Zubair's scams -- but it doesn't take a much bigger community before he finds a mark or two. Or Talossa has had fascist roots back in the day, thanks to the weird obsessions of youth -- is it hard to imagine a neo-Nazi taking a shine to a place with a province once named after Mussolini and posting Turner Diaries excerpts? Every public square in the world has laws governing behavior. Public intoxication, disturbing the peace, advertising laws, and the like. Before we discard our equivalents, people should think about the alternatives. I would say that comparing someone who uses "profane" language to a Nazi is a false equivalency. But let's even go with that. Public intoxication, disturbing the peace, advertising laws, are not free speech issues. Again, you can hold a sign with neo Nazis rhetoric in the public square and it's fine from a free speech standpoint. A private billboard can have whatever it wants. Advertising on government buildings or the like ( let's use the NYC Subway as an example because this has come up in suit) cannot discriminate against speech because the NYC subway is government run. It sells advertisment space to raise revenue. It can say "no ads related to religion" and, as long as it's applied to all, it's okay. It does not mean someone on the subway can't walk around preaching or holding a sign while in transit that is religious. Similarly, a public building like a school can allow its space to be used for public events, while restricting who can use it provided the proscription is content neutral. So it too can say, "yes, a Christian group can use the gym after hours" but that means so can Muslims, Jews, atheists, etc. It can say, "no politics," and as long as that applies to all politics, it's okay. This is different than a person standing on Main Street or in the Public Square. To wit--even SCOTUS has thrown out laws that required anti-choice protesters remain a specific distance from a women's clinic, and also held that laws restricting protests on public streets at funerals (a la Westboro Baptist Church) breached free speech. To be clear, what we're talking about is Talossa's primary, and for many, only Public Square for the free range of ideas, its only Main Street. The topic is the ability to stand on our equivalent of a public street and express your viewpoints. It is not the ability to go into the Cort forum and do the same. Further, the immunity for the Ziu and the Hopper are different in that they are government organs for the very purpose of debate, no matter how lively, and at minimum, an MZ is entitled to imminuity for anything said in speech and debate in the Ziu, which is pretty much universally respected in every democratic country in the world. And again, nothing I said means that people have to listen or engage. Or that people cant call another person out. Nothing means that a private entity without any government role can't say, fire someone from work. Or that even the government couldn't terminate the neo Nazis employee or dismiss the minister. But it means is that the offending person cant endure legal repercussion or have their speech effectively muted by government action. Banning a Witt account does just that.
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Nov 22, 2019 10:19:21 GMT -6
*But it means is that the offending person cant endure legal repercussion or have their speech effectively muted by government action.
Quick clarity-I meant criminal liability not, with the exception of parliamentary immunity, civil liability for defamation. My point is that banning a Witt account for actual speech in the public square/main street is the equivalent of the Talossan criminal punishment of expulsion, even if for a minute, hour,day, week, month, year, etc.
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