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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Nov 21, 2019 14:54:40 GMT -6
“Freedom of speech” refers to one’s ability to say what one wants without governmental, i.e. public, prosecution and repercussions. It does not give someone a free pass to be crass, or exempt one from backlash, admonishment, disagreement, or dislike. It also does not allow one to use inappropriate language without being berated. Basically, “freedom of speech” does not apply to the Cort of Public Opinion, nor the Cort of Civil Law. It is not a “get-out-of-criticism”–card, and it makes no sense to use it here. It would be like me saying: “I BROKE MY VASE! DAMN IT! YES, I SAID DAMN. FREE SPEECH, WHATCHU GON DO BOUT IT?” ...but we had a big fight about how some kinds of language, when abused frequently or with intensity, could result in a suspension of an ability to post. Like, I get what you're saying, but her use of the phrase in a context when she's using language that could result in hypothetical sanctions seems spot-on. It seems like you're bending over backwards to interpret it to refer to a freedom from being criticized for using the language. But, again, Witt is not Talossa. And the Wittiquette is not really public space. I would argue that in dire circumstances, administrators of Wittenberg have the right to remove someone, or to bar someone from interaction on this platform due to misconduct. And, again, that person would not face legal action. They would, however, have faced private consequences.
I can see how one could argue that this is all nitpicking, but the fact remains that freedom of speech does not apply to the current form of Wittenberg.
EDIT: ADDENDUM Now, Wittenberg is the main means of interaction of Talossans with each other. That means that it can legally be considered a public-domain like commodity, and that generally, the Covenants of Rights and Freedoms apply. However, a good judge would ideally rule in favour of the Wittiquette, if repercussions could follow for the whole of Wittenberg due to the unbecoming actions of one citizen. So this might be a legal grey area, and would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis: is Wittenberg actually similar to a public domain? Do, therefore, the Covenants of Rights and Freedoms apply to the essence of Wittenberg? And, then, is Wittenberg akin to a government building, or more like a supermarket? All the different answers to these questions have different legal consequences.
Yet n e v e r t h e l e s s, applying or requesting freedom of speech for oneself within the context as D:nă Rôibeardét did, is a misnomer at best, and lacks reflection of her actions at worst.
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Post by Audrada Rôibeardét on Nov 21, 2019 16:01:03 GMT -6
Sure, whatever you say, boss. If Witt is your little family-friendly 'sandbox', I can hang out with Talossans elsewhere.
Trust, we say whatever the hell we want.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Nov 21, 2019 16:16:07 GMT -6
Sure, whatever you say, boss. If Witt is your little family-friendly 'sandbox', I can hang out with Talossans elsewhere. Trust, we say whatever the hell we want. You mean to say that... somewhere... Talossans are.... are.... SWEARING?!
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 16:18:03 GMT -6
I understand the purpose of a census. And we could conduct one without striking people to achieve the same effect. But we're doing more than that -- we're saying that if we can't contact them, they are no longer a citizen. And that doesn't make much sense to me as an ideological or a practical approach.
I agree that we don't have much with which we can threaten citizens for noncompliance, but that doesn't make the threat a desirable thing or worth the rewards.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 16:18:45 GMT -6
...but we had a big fight about how some kinds of language, when abused frequently or with intensity, could result in a suspension of an ability to post. Like, I get what you're saying, but her use of the phrase in a context when she's using language that could result in hypothetical sanctions seems spot-on. It seems like you're bending over backwards to interpret it to refer to a freedom from being criticized for using the language. But, again, Witt is not Talossa. And the Wittiquette is not really public space. I would argue that in dire circumstances, administrators of Wittenberg have the right to remove someone, or to bar someone from interaction on this platform due to misconduct. And, again, that person would not face legal action. They would, however, have faced private consequences. I can see how one could argue that this is all nitpicking, but the fact remains that freedom of speech does not apply to the current form of Wittenberg. EDIT: ADDENDUM Now, Wittenberg is the main means of interaction of Talossans with each other. That means that it can legally be considered a public-domain like commodity, and that generally, the Covenants of Rights and Freedoms apply. However, a good judge would ideally rule in favour of the Wittiquette, if repercussions could follow for the whole of Wittenberg due to the unbecoming actions of one citizen. So this might be a legal grey area, and would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis: is Wittenberg actually similar to a public domain? Do, therefore, the Covenants of Rights and Freedoms apply to the essence of Wittenberg? And, then, is Wittenberg akin to a government building, or more like a supermarket? All the different answers to these questions have different legal consequences.
Yet n e v e r t h e l e s s, applying or requesting freedom of speech for oneself within the context as D:nă Rôibeardét did, is a misnomer at best, and lacks reflection of her actions at worst.
I think I agree most with the long, well-thought-out part of your post that makes my point.
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Post by Iason Bitxichë Taiwos on Nov 21, 2019 17:20:07 GMT -6
Sure, whatever you say, boss. If Witt is your little family-friendly 'sandbox', I can hang out with Talossans elsewhere. Trust, we say whatever the hell we want. Remember, tho, anything that occurs outside of Witt isn't considered legitimately Talossan. (But we're A REAL COUNTRY!)
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 21, 2019 17:32:21 GMT -6
I am on the record as proposing a compromise that swearing and profane language should be permitted only in Talossan. Thanks to King Robert I for helpfully translating the F-word and its minor cousins.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Nov 21, 2019 17:45:23 GMT -6
The interesting thing to think about when considering Epic's argument is that the nature of Witt is going to change soon.
Yes, today, it is private property. However, soon (hopefully), Witt will be national infrastructure under direct control of the government and not of a private citizen.
When that change happens will we start considering Witt as a representation of 'public space'?
If we don't then the question we have to ask ourselves is this: What is the point in having the Covenant of Rights and Freedoms? I mean, the CoR&F doesn't fully apply in private space. You can argue that 'Talossa is not just Witt', but then where is? Where else can the Covenant apply? Every other possible Talossan interaction outside of Witt is also 'private'. Wittsapp is property, chatzy is property, email is property. All interactions outside of Witt occurs under private domain. So, if Witt is also private domain, where and what is public? If nowhere and nothing is public, then the Covenant never fully applies, thus theres not a single point in it even existing!
We need to to adopt the (slightly Peculiar) mindset where Wittenberg (or, at least, part of it) is the public arena of this nation. Otherwise, the Covenant of Rights and Freedoms is nothing more than virtue signalling and for show.
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Post by Iason Bitxichë Taiwos on Nov 21, 2019 17:58:23 GMT -6
Who decides what's considered "profane"? Why would "cow patties" be more appropriate than "bullshit" when they both convey the same idea? I've never understood these fucking cultural taboos about words.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 21, 2019 18:03:53 GMT -6
Who decides what's considered "profane"? Why would "cow patties" be more appropriate than "bullshit" when they both convey the same idea? I've never understood these fucking cultural taboos about words. Well, I'm not the one who's upset by "Anglo-Saxon language".
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Post by Iason Bitxichë Taiwos on Nov 21, 2019 18:14:38 GMT -6
Swearing in Talossan would be the same as swearing in any other language, except you don't expect anybody to be offended if you swear in Talossan because nobody knows those words.(For the most part.) If the meaning behind the words is the same... what's the difference? Verpa or dick, what's the difference?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 18:54:25 GMT -6
Witt is our public face. It's not Talossa qua Talossa, but it serves as our primary method of communication. Official notices may be given on Witt (sometimes they must be given on Witt). Provincial governments and the national legislature almost exclusively use Witt for the people's business. Most of our major institutions have a Witt presence. Immigration must occur on Witt by law. And it's the center of Talossan social life, although I am pleased that this is starting to shift a bit.
Inasmuch as Witt is integral to the Talossan experience, and regardless of whether that's good, it's true, then we need to make it a welcoming and generally pleasant place. You're not allowed to post spam. You're not allowed to post long racist screeds. You're expected to keep offensive language to a minimum. And of late, you're asked not to be very rude. Failure to abide by these requests means your post will get removed or moved, and repeated failure might lead to suspension or banning from Witt.
Under my plan for the new Witt, this is likely to change. Because it's going to be a public institution, administration will be done by the Chancery on terms set by local authorities. If a province wants to permit any and all sorts of speech in their public square, that will be up to them. I hope that most boards will adopt the basic terms of current Wittiquette, but it will be something that elections will be able to address on the new Witt.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Nov 21, 2019 19:03:13 GMT -6
Ha ha, you've mentioned this before, but you're neither a politician nor a member of the Chancery who will administer the new Witt, so I don't know how you think you'll implement this plan.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Nov 21, 2019 19:12:28 GMT -6
...I wrote the plan? When I say that it's "my plan," I mean that I wrote the law behind it that was then passed, and which will be going into effect. I believe (although I'm less confident in this) that I also came up with the basic idea behind the scheme. The law received almost unanimous approval, including your votes. EDIT: I admit that this objection weirded me out so I actually went to double-check: www.talossa.ca/files/clark.php?cosa=53&clark=3. Maybe you thought I was somehow claiming to be the new Witt owner or something? I was not.
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Post by Iason Bitxichë Taiwos on Nov 21, 2019 20:25:42 GMT -6
People like AD and Miestra have done a lot for Talossa. Have they developed a local community, not dependent on Witt? If Talossa is so important that we devote this much to it, where are the offline communities? Can I come visit you in New Zealand and find an amazing group of Talossans with their own local lingo and culture? Are there groups of clandestine Talossans whose citizenship has never been approved by the government, but who nonetheless feel as Talossan as the officially recognized citizens? We are trying in Ohio. We have an active, real life thing going on here that seems to be of no importance to the vast majority of you solitary citizens. Especially you old timers. Where is the real life in Talossa? If it's just lonely people dreaming up bills and laws, y'all can have that shit. We're working on a real life, offline Talossan community here
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