Txosuè Pologn
Talossan since 11-04-2012
Veritas et Fidelitas
Posts: 99
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Post by Txosuè Pologn on Apr 17, 2016 15:45:39 GMT -6
So, if this thing goes through and passes, what would be the process for those of us whose geographic location now puts us in a different province to declare our intent to remain in our original province? I see that a provision has been added, but I'm curious as to how that will be facilitated. I'm not terribly happy to see Illinois being taken out of Benito, but I guess if it's genuinely in the best interest of the Nation, I'm willing to be supportive. But, even if you can take Illinois out of Benito, you can't take me out of Benito.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Apr 17, 2016 15:48:22 GMT -6
People will only automcatically change province if they physically move. Otherwise, the default option is to remain a citizen of your current province, though you can still choose to become a citizen of the "correct" province, but only if you want to.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Apr 17, 2016 15:56:24 GMT -6
This would still be relative geographical contiguity with an eye at tradition. Anything is better than the current mess. Well, a lot of people seemed unhappy about the current situation because it a) does not make sense geogprahically, or b) does not accurately reflect where everyone currently lives, or c) does not make sense linguistically, or culturally or any other way, or d) is balanced in terms of immigration rates It is neither flesh nor fish. The proposal that we were discussing earlier today was great because made a clear choice, one that has support from a lot of people, but obviously not everyone. It would make sense geographically and it would at least be somewhat more balanced. Removing these two things and we are again left with a compromise that no one is really happy about. It would really take the soul out of the proposal. We have been discussing this for almost a year now. Earlier today we had a proposal that you were happy about, that I was happy about, that Sir Cresti was happy about, that Txec was happy about, that Ian was happy about, that Carlüs was happy about. (Note that there's people from 6 different provinces in that list) Some others, most of whom didn't contribute untill today, are not happy. That's always gonna happen I'm afraid. I dont think these changes will convince all of them. At least ESB seems to be opposed to changing provinces altogether. Maybe that means the bill will fail. I would suggest unless anyone has a suggestion to create more balance that leaves the geographical assignment intact, just clark what was proposed earlier today. If it failed, at least we tried. I'd prefer that over just giving up.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Apr 17, 2016 16:05:04 GMT -6
Actually, just to pick up Glüc’s criticism:
If we group Germany, Switzerland, Austria, BeNeLux together, and instead reassign the Czech Republic to whatever is blue, then Europe would be quite balanced. That would also group together countries with similar cultural heritage in one Talossan province.
I would, maybe, reassign Portugal (and Spain?) to Vuode, and I would be partial to taking Slovenia, and Croatia to Vuode as well. Or Maritiimi-Maxhestic. Maybe that would balance it out a bit? Then MM, VD, CZ and BN (what is Benito? BO? BT? BE? BN?) would be the “European Provinces”... Something like that?
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Apr 17, 2016 16:11:25 GMT -6
How is that even a response to my criticism? It would only further rip provinces apart geographically.
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Post by Iason Bitxichë Taiwos on Apr 17, 2016 16:16:53 GMT -6
I'll choose to remain a Benitian regardless of how this turns out, but I will say, in a way, it will suck if Ohio goes to Vuode...not only will I be a Talossan who doesn't live in Talossa, I'll be a Benitian who doesn't even live in a Benitian catchment area. Were I to persuade some of my friends to seek citizenship, I would like them to be Benitians, but they'd be Vuodeans. There are currently three active citizens in Ohio who would be displaced by this, all three of whom live only a short distance from each other. (Two are currently active in the Benitian government.)(Yeah, Lüc changed the map because I whined about it. We Ohio Benitians are fiercely proud of our province, and not partial to having our Ohio catchment area pulled out from under our feet.) As for making the changes to aid dying provinces, hey, some guys make it, some don't. The citizens of these other provinces should just be more active in proselytizing the Talossan cause. For a nation that's been around for damn near 40 years,we should be constantly inundated with hordes of immigrants.
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Post by Iason Bitxichë Taiwos on Apr 17, 2016 16:28:35 GMT -6
This would still be relative geographical contiguity with an eye at tradition. Anything is better than the current mess. We have been discussing this for almost a year now. Earlier today we had a proposal that you were happy about, that I was happy about, that Sir Cresti was happy about, that Txec was happy about, that Ian was happy about, that Carlüs was happy about. (Note that there's people from 6 different provinces in that list) Some others, most of whom didn't contribute untill today, are not happy. That's always gonna happen I'm afraid. I dont think these changes will convince all of them. At least ESB seems to be opposed to changing provinces altogether. I apologize for not having previously contributed to the discussion of this, as for a long time I was working a twelve hour shift at work, that went on for months and months, and had neither the time nor the mental energy to focus on Talossan affairs seriously. It happens sometimes.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Apr 17, 2016 16:45:01 GMT -6
People will only automcatically change province if they physically move. Otherwise, the default option is to remain a citizen of your current province, though you can still choose to become a citizen of the "correct" province, but only if you want to. But, for example, my wife and I just closed on a house. It is approximately 3 blocks from my current residence. But according to the new catchment areas and the "Moves Like Mick Jagger Act" I would magically morph into a Vuodean? There's a lot to this that isn't being taken into consideration. But also, a lot of half measures. If catchment areas change, then current provincial residents won't have to change. Unless they move. Then if they move, even if it is to the apartment upstairs, they switch provinces. So we have Ohians in Benito, and in Vuode, and folks across the border in Pennsylvania in heavens knows where. If you really want geographically consistent provinces, then force the move. No half-measures. X is the catchment area... you live in X... you are the citizen of X province. It is twitching this kind of stuff in half measures that is causing a lot of your difficulty. Provincial catchments that "make sense" shouldn't be your chief concern. And if that's really what you're going for, what does Dallas, TX and Santiago, Chile have in common?
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Apr 17, 2016 16:46:20 GMT -6
We have been discussing this for almost a year now. Earlier today we had a proposal that you were happy about, that I was happy about, that Sir Cresti was happy about, that Txec was happy about, that Ian was happy about, that Carlüs was happy about. (Note that there's people from 6 different provinces in that list) Some others, most of whom didn't contribute untill today, are not happy. That's always gonna happen I'm afraid. I dont think these changes will convince all of them. At least ESB seems to be opposed to changing provinces altogether. I apologize for not having previously contributed to the discussion of this, as for a long time I was working a twelve hour shift at work, that went on for months and months, and had neither the time nor the mental energy to focus on Talossan affairs seriously. It happens sometimes. No need to apologise. Like you said, it happens. Sorry for bringing it up. I am obviously a bit frustrated, but that is not your fault.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Apr 17, 2016 16:49:47 GMT -6
People will only automcatically change province if they physically move. Otherwise, the default option is to remain a citizen of your current province, though you can still choose to become a citizen of the "correct" province, but only if you want to. But, for example, my wife and I just closed on a house. It is approximately 3 blocks from my current residence. But according to the new catchment areas and the "Moves Like Mick Jagger Act" I would magically morph into a Vuodean? No. It only applies when you move to another country or more than 1000 kilometers. Not true, see above.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Apr 17, 2016 16:55:58 GMT -6
So it has been rewritten to leave Ohio alone. Well and good so far as that goes. But I think the problem is even more systemic than simply "who goes where." Having just moved provinces, I've no desire to move again, but mealy-mouthed reluctance to commit to the desired catchment areas are a part of the problem with this system. However, I would also point out that fiddling with this kind of thing is an absolutely great way to create the illusion of change, and the illusion of activity, without actually having to do anything substantial. Move the catchment 1 state over.... then move is back during the next Cosa. Pretty ingenious. Is this was the Mod-Rads were doing as opposed to carrying out their portfolios in the last government?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 17, 2016 17:23:39 GMT -6
However, I would also point out that fiddling with this kind of thing is an absolutely great way to create the illusion of change, and the illusion of activity, without actually having to do anything substantial. Move the catchment 1 state over.... then move is back during the next Cosa. Pretty ingenious. Is this was the Mod-Rads were doing as opposed to carrying out their portfolios in the last government? That's a low blow. A number of people have been concerned that the provincial assignment system is seriously broken for a long time, and that the flaws in the system contribute to provincial inactivity. We've put a lot of thought and discussion into how to make things better. Disagree if you want, but this kind of dismissiveness is unfair.
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Apr 17, 2016 17:49:38 GMT -6
However, I would also point out that fiddling with this kind of thing is an absolutely great way to create the illusion of change, and the illusion of activity, without actually having to do anything substantial. Move the catchment 1 state over.... then move is back during the next Cosa. Pretty ingenious. Is this was the Mod-Rads were doing as opposed to carrying out their portfolios in the last government? That's a low blow. A number of people have been concerned that the provincial assignment system is seriously broken for a long time, and that the flaws in the system contribute to provincial inactivity. We've put a lot of thought and discussion into how to make things better. Disagree if you want, but this kind of dismissiveness is unfair. I would submit that it is not so much lopsided provinces that contribute to provincial inactivity so much as it is the fact that the national government is so massive that provincial activity is an unneeded outlet. Why bother with the province so much when you can dance on the national stage? If you're sitting in two legislatures (and I think I am one of the few people in this country who is not), one is going to get less attention. As far as being unfair, I don't find commentary on a sitting legislator's record to be particularly unfair. I see catchment reform as a treadmill that allows politicians to show sweaty brows without actually accomplishing something. If the provincial system isn't working... then reform it at the root.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Apr 18, 2016 4:39:52 GMT -6
I'm rather concerned with Fiova being kicked out of North America, I'll be honest.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Apr 18, 2016 8:23:48 GMT -6
I'm rather concerned with Fiova being kicked out of North America, I'll be honest. You've been a sponsor of the bill for several months. That's been part of the proposal from the beginning. Why the concern now?
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