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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 27, 2014 9:22:35 GMT -6
...the complaint has no electoral charges, as I recall. Maybe I am mistaken? I thought it was only immigration charges. Our do I have those mixed up?
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Post by Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. on Jul 27, 2014 10:10:12 GMT -6
I suppose I'm a bit miffed by your use of the phrase "so you're done" when the Attorney-General has filed a total of 32 criminal counts against ESB, immediately following your accusing him of having not filed anything. Now, we're suddenly at a place of "what, you're only going to file 32 counts of fraud and abuse agains him?"
As the issues of immigration and electoral fraud can be separated, I can understand why the AG wouldn't file them together. I have not seen the AG make any statement that he is refusing to bring electoral charges in the future, but let's also remember that ESB is facing a potential lifetime banishment. If he is banished on the immigration charges, the electoral fraud charges would be kind of moot.
In any case, the progression from "you've done nothing" to "I don't feel you're doing enough" seemed rather sudden considering The AG had just been repeatedly bashed for inaction because the posters hadn't thought to review the court boards prior to making their statements.
Regarding the activity of ministers, let me just say that it would be foolish for any member of the current government to not expect some sort of teething trouble. The RUMP held the government for a good long while and loyal opponents of that government are serving as ministers for the first time. Considering the RUMP, prior to losing the majority, was of the opinion that their inaction was better than drastic change (in the wrong direction) it seems everyone may have won this term. There was no drastic change and new people got to be inactive in their government roles!
I think this reinforces where the civil service can come in handy. If a person is really dedicated to the ministry of stuff, then let them remain on regardless of the political government as a permanent secretary and do what they do best. Considering most politicians in other nations are useless, I think we shouldn't be too hard on our part-time members of government who do the best they can when they can. That doesn't mean we should ignore mismanagement or not hold members of government accountable, but it also means we should give credit where credit is due, regardless of party affiliation.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Jul 27, 2014 13:37:08 GMT -6
As the issues of immigration and electoral fraud can be separated, I can understand why the AG wouldn't file them together. I have not seen the AG make any statement that he is refusing to bring electoral charges in the future, but let's also remember that ESB is facing a potential lifetime banishment. If he is banished on the immigration charges, the electoral fraud charges would be kind of moot. No, they would NOT be moot, as the case would serve as a precedent for future cases, and it would be a separate sentence. Imagine that he is one day able to get a pardon for the immigration fraud, because we discover some sort of situation where such a pardon would make sense (such as hardening our immigration laws thanks to his precedent, and he manages to convince us that he did act without that much malice), then, there is still in (let's say) condemnation for electoral fraud he needs to get over. Plus, the (theoritical at this point) electoral condemnation allows the SoS (currently me) to properly amend our history to indicate that yes, fraud was committed (again, assuming he is found guilty). Without a criminal record, I do not have, as SoS, a clear proof that a fraud was committed with intention to defraud. Plus, what if it is revealed during the trial that someone knew of his fraud before the election in question? If the ZRT knew (not saying they did), they were accomplices and would need to be tried too. If the RUMP knew (again, not saying they did), they let someone commit a crime (in Canada at least, it's not criminal to not report a crime you didn't benefit from but it is a crime to lie about it when questioned by the police, don't know for Wisconsin). if the then SoS knew (no idea who is was at this point), it's a dereliction of duties or something (not sure what it would be). In short, this SoS wants to know, in a court of law, exactly what happened and the guilty party (parties) brought to justice. That said, the SoS doesn't lay down charges, the A-G does. And in all impartiality, the SoS doesn't officially ask anything from the A-G.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 27, 2014 13:47:28 GMT -6
Hey Sir Alexandreu, the A-G is under the belief, having combed El Lexhátx thoroughly, that Talossa actually has no law against electoral fraud. Not surprising since the public ballot was supposed to prevent that... or that KR1 didn't want his own shenanigans to be culpable. So ESB can only be charged with immigration fraud.
So what happens now? Do the Beagle Boys withdraw and apologise for their contention that the A-G gave up on pursuing ESB and thus pursuing Hooligan is some kind of vendetta? Nah. Sir Alex and the RUMP never do anything wrong, because if the RUMP does it, it's not wrong.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 27, 2014 13:52:22 GMT -6
Hey Sir Alexandreu, the A-G is under the belief, having combed El Lexhátx thoroughly, that Talossa actually has no law against electoral fraud. Isn't that when Wisconsin Law chimes in to fill the gap? Oh, I'm such a layman when it comes to Talossan law....
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jul 27, 2014 13:53:00 GMT -6
Hey Sir Alexandreu, the A-G is under the belief, having combed El Lexhátx thoroughly, that Talossa actually has no law against electoral fraud. Not surprising since the public ballot was supposed to prevent that... or that KR1 didn't want his own shenanigans to be culpable. So ESB can only be charged with immigration fraud. So what happens now? Do the Beagle Boys withdraw and apologise for their contention that the A-G gave up on pursuing ESB and thus pursuing Hooligan is some kind of vendetta? Nah. Sir Alex and the RUMP never do anything wrong, because if the RUMP does it, it's not wrong. Whatever you think is going on when it comes to the RUMP, you're wrong. At least that's what they tell me, and us being filthy Reviensadeirs you can't blame them for saying so.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Jul 27, 2014 13:53:53 GMT -6
Hey Sir Alexandreu, the A-G is under the belief, having combed El Lexhátx thoroughly, that Talossa actually has no law against electoral fraud. Isn't that when Wisconsin Law chimes in to fill the gap? Oh, I'm such a layman when it comes to Talossan law.... I have looked through every incorporated law of the Wisconsin Codes, and have not found any punishment, or law against election fraud. There is a law in the whole codes, but that specific law is not one of the incorporated ones, so not applicable to Talossa.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 27, 2014 13:55:23 GMT -6
Hey Sir Alexandreu, the A-G is under the belief, having combed El Lexhátx thoroughly, that Talossa actually has no law against electoral fraud. Isn't that when Wisconsin Law chimes in to fill the gap? Oh, I'm such a layman when it comes to Talossan law.... That's what we have an A-G to help us. I myself had to do a bit of combing to help the A-G find what the laws against conspiracy to commit a crime were. Wisconsin has laws against electoral fraud, but those are not included in El Lexhátx. (Nor, by the way, are Wisconsin's laws on in what cases a judge must recuse him- or herself, which is annoying.)
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 27, 2014 13:55:48 GMT -6
It makes me smirk to hear this... fingers crossed.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 27, 2014 14:14:47 GMT -6
Is that really true?! Holy cow!
And yeah, after thinking about it and looking through the laws, it does seem to be true that there are ample provisions to eliminate extra votes, but none to make it illegal to cast votes under someone else's name or in the name of a person falsely admitted to the rolls.
You guys are completely right! Wow, this is something we need to fix in the next Cosa.
I withdraw my insinuations about the Attorney-General or his priorities, and apologize in that regard. I had been mis-remembering the voting clause, I guess. Sorry, Epic!
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Jul 27, 2014 14:19:02 GMT -6
Is that really true?! Holy cow! And yeah, after thinking about it and looking through the laws, it does seem to be true that there are ample provisions to eliminate extra votes, but none to make it illegal to cast votes under someone else's name or in the name of a person falsely admitted to the rolls. You guys are completely right! Wow, this is something we need to fix in the next Cosa. I withdraw my insinuations about the Attorney-General or his priorities, and apologize in that regard. I had been mis-remembering the voting clause, I guess. Sorry, Epic! Don't sweat it! We all get outraged sometimes. As long as you, for yourself, realise that I have not been not doing anything, it's all cool.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 27, 2014 14:22:57 GMT -6
If I remember correctly, Davron were never prosecuted for their attempted electoral fraud in the 1994 Cosâ election (secretly taking over a second political party running in the election in addition to their own). KR1 went after them for not sending him a copy of their front party's election advertisement instead.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 27, 2014 14:24:13 GMT -6
You're very gracious, and you were definitely the best Attorney-General of this term. Probably the most productive Minister in the Cabinet, for that matter. I've flung a lot of Terps at the Government about the performance of your Ministry, if only because it's of especial interest to me, and while I do not wholly agree with your prosecutorial decisions (not seeking the maximum penalty of expulsion against ESB, or citing violations of el Lexhatx, are not what I would do in your place) I do commend your attentions to your work. As well as your kindness when pointing out my mistake.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 27, 2014 14:25:01 GMT -6
If I remember correctly, Davron were never prosecuted for their attempted electoral fraud in the 1994 Cosâ election (secretly taking over a second political party running in the election in addition to their own). KR1 went after them for not sending him a copy of their front party's election advertisement instead. Well that's definitely something we have to fix. It will be tricky to do so, since it's hard to legally distinguish between accidental multiple votes and intentional ones. Maybe that's why it was never done.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Jul 27, 2014 14:26:45 GMT -6
If I remember correctly, Davron were never prosecuted for their attempted electoral fraud in the 1994 Cosâ election (secretly taking over a second political party running in the election in addition to their own). KR1 went after them for not sending him a copy of their front party's election advertisement instead. Well that's definitely something we have to fix. It will be tricky to do so, since it's hard to legally distinguish between accidental multiple votes and intentional ones. Maybe that's why it was never done. Right. The legislators must take precaution, so that innocent mistakes do not become criminalised.
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