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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 10, 2014 8:01:13 GMT -6
Because if the Ziu doesn't approve of one of several changes listed in this one Bill, the Committee would have to resubmit the same Bill many times with slight modifications every time. By presenting one Bill with one change at a time, it would be easier to see what the Ziu is ready to change and what not to change. I'd prefer not to flood the Clark with multiple bills (currently there are 30 holidays and days of observation). 30 separate bills would be excessive. We are not going to change every holiday, I hope. That's precisely what we are trying to do here, on this thread.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 10, 2014 8:07:59 GMT -6
I'd prefer not to flood the Clark with multiple bills (currently there are 30 holidays and days of observation). 30 separate bills would be excessive. We are not going to change every holiday, I hope. That's precisely what we are trying to do here, on this thread. I don't believe we will change every holiday. To make changes in the observation of holidays and observations, we will have to repeal previous laws and PD's. So we will need a bill to be passed to do so. I am just suggesting that we form an advisory committee to speed the process along. Are you opposed to that idea of a committee? If so, why?
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 10, 2014 11:56:44 GMT -6
We are not going to change every holiday, I hope. That's precisely what we are trying to do here, on this thread. To make changes in the observation of holidays and observations, we will have to repeal previous laws and PD's. So we will need a bill to be passed to do so. I am just suggesting that we form an advisory committee to speed the process along. Are you opposed to that idea of a committee? If so, why? I am opposed, because that poses too many unnecessary problems: who will appoint this committee, who is going to be there, will it be representative of what Talossa wants, who would have the power to override this committee's decisions, etc... It's easier to just post a Bill to the Hopper and debate there.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 10, 2014 12:27:10 GMT -6
It's simple. The Minister of Culture heads the committee. The Minister then selects 3-5 members to be on the committee. I would hazard to guess it would comprised of members that were interested in participating , and a cross section of representation (such as a Royalist, a Republican, citizens who have been here less than a year, 1-5 years, 5-10 years, 10+ years, etc).
Once they have discussed the changes, they present one bill to the Hopper, for further discussion. This allows ALL Citizens input on the changes. From there, a refined Bill is presented to the Ziu for voting.
It's easier this way than having a slew of 30+ bills on the up or down of each holiday/ observance.
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 10, 2014 13:13:38 GMT -6
I don't understand why we need to complicate all of this. Why not present the Bill directly to the Hopper, and discuss it there? Or just continue discussing it here? With this committee, it will just take more time for such a bill to be presented. As Nike says: let's just do it.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 10, 2014 13:20:43 GMT -6
I don't understand why we need to complicate all of this. Why not present the Bill directly to the Hopper, and discuss it there? Or just continue discussing it here? With this committee, it will just take more time for such a bill to be presented. As Nike says: let's just do it. This isn't complicated at all. I can't understand why you think it is. Discussing it here isn't going to change anything. And some holidays/observances will be missed. My suggestion will have every date discussed, and the list ready for a Bill to be discussed in the Hopper, ready to be voted on. And just how long do you think it will take a Bill to get out of the hopper? And why are you in such a rush anyway?
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 10, 2014 14:07:12 GMT -6
I don't understand why we need to complicate all of this. Why not present the Bill directly to the Hopper, and discuss it there? Or just continue discussing it here? With this committee, it will just take more time for such a bill to be presented. As Nike says: let's just do it. This isn't complicated at all. I can't understand why you think it is. Discussing it here isn't going to change anything. And some holidays/observances will be missed. My suggestion will have every date discussed, and the list ready for a Bill to be discussed in the Hopper, ready to be voted on. And just how long do you think it will take a Bill to get out of the hopper? And why are you in such a rush anyway? Do whatever you think is right, S:reu Preston. I presented my opinion, you presented yours. In the end, it isn't our decision, but the Minister of Culture's decision. If she thinks this is a good idea, then she will create this committee.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
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Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 10, 2014 15:39:27 GMT -6
It baffles me that the same person pushing for a numinous "wider public consultation" is also demanding an untested Bill be put straight to the Ziu.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Jul 10, 2014 15:55:31 GMT -6
Every Bill, put to the Ziu, is untested. That's why we have the Hopper: to test it publicly.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
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Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 10, 2014 16:04:27 GMT -6
Are you attempting to suggest there should not be public consultation or discussion about any topic save when it has been presented in specific legislative format - which is of course a way doomed to fail when it comes to sensitive topics?
Occasionally I feel when I'm engaging in conversation here that I'm dealing with something far beyond language barriers or differences of ideology - I'm dealing sheer perversity. OBVIOUSLY public consultations are legitimate and useful. OBVIOUSLY eventually pinning things down in draft legislature is necessary. There's no need to pick between those options!
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 10, 2014 16:06:46 GMT -6
It baffles me that the same person pushing for a numinous "wider public consultation" is also demanding an untested Bill be put straight to the Ziu. Yes, a wider public consultation. Not a committee chosen by a Ministry, independent of public consultation.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 10, 2014 16:46:32 GMT -6
It baffles me that the same person pushing for a numinous "wider public consultation" is also demanding an untested Bill be put straight to the Ziu. Yes, a wider public consultation. Not a committee chosen by a Ministry, independent of public consultation. Who said it was independent of public consultation? Where do you think the members of the committee are coming from?
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 10, 2014 17:01:55 GMT -6
A committee investigating the situation (you know - like committees appointed the world over) would surely come to a better and fuller appreciation of the situation and draft a better Bill than just MinCul on her own.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 10, 2014 18:03:10 GMT -6
A committee investigating the situation (you know - like committees appointed the world over) would surely come to a better and fuller appreciation of the situation and draft a better Bill than just MinCul on her own. It sounds like you think Lupüc is talking about MinCult writing a bill on her own and then submitting it for a Ziu vote on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. I think he's talking about a draft posted in the Hopper for discussion purposes, with the anticipation that discussion will occur about what to add to or remove from the bill, with discussion open to everyone (i.e. not just members of a committee) and aimed at reaching a broad consensus.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 10, 2014 18:14:58 GMT -6
A committee investigating the situation (you know - like committees appointed the world over) would surely come to a better and fuller appreciation of the situation and draft a better Bill than just MinCul on her own. It sounds like you think Lupüc is talking about MinCult writing a bill on her own and then submitting it for a Ziu vote on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. I think he's talking about a draft posted in the Hopper for discussion purposes, with the anticipation that discussion will occur about what to add to or remove from the bill, with discussion open to everyone (i.e. not just members of a committee) and aimed at reaching a broad consensus. I've suggested that both a thorough pre-draft investigation as well as a draft discussion are both appropriate and good things to do. What I'm being incredulous about is the apparent need to choose between the two as if they were rivals for our time.
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