Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 10, 2014 18:32:15 GMT -6
Doesn't matter much to me what the process is. I see no cause to change any of the existing holidays, with the exception of possibly renaming the Holiday of Hatred (got no real problem with it myself, but can understand the objections of others, so I can get behind Ián's suggested compromise of renaming it to Flag Day). So if a bill is clarked that renames the Holiday of Hatred, I might be inclined to vote for it. If it tinkers with any of the other holidays or days of observance, I'll probably vote against.
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Post by Éovart Andrinescù on Jul 10, 2014 22:50:55 GMT -6
On the question of the alleged contrived nature of some of these holidays and days of observation; weren't all traditions invented at some point? All traditions have contrived roots. Tradition is simply a set of customs that have been practised for a long enough time and by a sufficiently large and devoted portion of people in a group for the question of why the tradition exists in the first place to become irrelevant.
Anyway, retouching or outright deleting history and culture simply for the sake of ignoring the memory of a man who was largely disliked is wrong and basically akin to Stalinism. If King Robert had introduced a tradition under which prospective citizens were to be mercilessly hazed as part of the immigration process in order to "prove their commitment to Talossa", then we could definitely justify ending that tradition because it would be harmful, but since these holidays are merely celebrations and remembrances, I don't see any real need to change them.
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 11, 2014 2:16:15 GMT -6
A committee investigating the situation (you know - like committees appointed the world over) would surely come to a better and fuller appreciation of the situation and draft a better Bill than just MinCul on her own. I think he's talking about a draft posted in the Hopper for discussion purposes, with the anticipation that discussion will occur about what to add to or remove from the bill, with discussion open to everyone (i.e. not just members of a committee) and aimed at reaching a broad consensus. This is precisely what I'm talking about.
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 11, 2014 2:19:48 GMT -6
It sounds like you think Lupüc is talking about MinCult writing a bill on her own and then submitting it for a Ziu vote on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. I think he's talking about a draft posted in the Hopper for discussion purposes, with the anticipation that discussion will occur about what to add to or remove from the bill, with discussion open to everyone (i.e. not just members of a committee) and aimed at reaching a broad consensus. I've suggested that both a thorough pre-draft investigation as well as a draft discussion are both appropriate and good things to do. What I'm being incredulous about is the apparent need to choose between the two as if they were rivals for our time. What I don't understand is: why is it so necessary to create this committee to do something that can be done on our own? The thoroughness of the Bill won't change much with or without a committee. We will all reach a consensus in the end, and present the Bill to the Ziu. There is no need for a committee.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jul 11, 2014 2:48:11 GMT -6
It's simple. The Minister of Culture heads the committee. The Minister then selects 3-5 members to be on the committee. I would hazard to guess it would comprised of members that were interested in participating , and a cross section of representation (such as a Royalist, a Republican, citizens who have been here less than a year, 1-5 years, 5-10 years, 10+ years, etc). What we need is a committee to appoint delegates to a criteria committee, which will then decide the necessary criteria for delegates to the committee which will advise on public holidays. Sorted.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jul 11, 2014 2:49:43 GMT -6
On a serious note, I think having a committee look at it would probably provide some backing in terms of legitimacy when it comes to proposing the bill as well. If an advisory committee is proposing something and is comprised of a good cross-section of people, then legislators are less likely to be suspicious of the motivations of the person proposing the bill.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 11, 2014 6:50:03 GMT -6
What I don't understand is: why is it so necessary to create this committee to do something that can be done on our own? The thoroughness of the Bill won't change much with or without a committee. We will all reach a consensus in the end, and present the Bill to the Ziu. There is no need for a committee. Perhaps I should rephrase the idea , so that you have a better understanding of why the Committee process would be a better method. The Committee will be chaired by the Culture Minister. One of the Ministry of Culture's responsibilities is the pubic observance of all the holidays and observances of the Kingdom. The current Minister has some questions and concerns about the Kingdom's holidays and observances. The Minister creates a committee of 5 individuals of various backgrounds and lengths of time as a Citizen. Together, they look at every single Holiday and Observance, and decide the worthiness or impact of the holiday. From there , they create a Bill that is sent to the Hopper. This will be a Bill that is well though out, well phrased, and will present the conclusions of Committee. FROM THERE, the Ziu as a whole will have the time to discuss the merits of the Bill, and if need be the conclusions of committee. What the Ziu will NOT get is a Hodge-podge bill thrown together that may or may not include every Holiday or Observation. There WILL be a bill that is thorough and vetted by a concerned group of Citizens that have cared enough about the Holidays and Observations. This is a much more logical method to address the concerns of the Minister. There is a need for a committee.
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on Jul 11, 2014 7:38:01 GMT -6
What I don't understand is: why is it so necessary to create this committee to do something that can be done on our own? The thoroughness of the Bill won't change much with or without a committee. We will all reach a consensus in the end, and present the Bill to the Ziu. There is no need for a committee. Perhaps I should rephrase the idea , so that you have a better understanding of why the Committee process would be a better method. The Committee will be chaired by the Culture Minister. One of the Ministry of Culture's responsibilities is the pubic observance of all the holidays and observances of the Kingdom. The current Minister has some questions and concerns about the Kingdom's holidays and observances. The Minister creates a committee of 5 individuals of various backgrounds and lengths of time as a Citizen. Together, they look at every single Holiday and Observance, and decide the worthiness or impact of the holiday. From there , they create a Bill that is sent to the Hopper. This will be a Bill that is well though out, well phrased, and will present the conclusions of Committee. FROM THERE, the Ziu as a whole will have the time to discuss the merits of the Bill, and if need be the conclusions of committee. What the Ziu will NOT get is a Hodge-podge bill thrown together that may or may not include every Holiday or Observation. There WILL be a bill that is thorough and vetted by a concerned group of Citizens that have cared enough about the Holidays and Observations. This is a much more logical method to address the concerns of the Minister. There is a need for a committee. As I said, I don't see the need in this. But the Culture Minister will decide on her own if this is needed.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 11, 2014 9:03:44 GMT -6
I'm glad you accept the Minister of Culture can make decisions on her own. I'm quite sure she is also adult enough to listen to suggestions, too.
I'm not personally too bothered by the idea of a committee - if MinCult goes for that that's great but if not that's great too. I think this thread is accomplishing a lot of the work of any such committee by testing public opinion (its stated aim). So - no need to rush to draft legislature given this is accomplishing the necessary research!
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 11, 2014 13:28:34 GMT -6
On the one hand - maybe my Textorian hand - I'd say that a nationette can't have enough public holidays on which workers can stay at home and mind their own business, instead of having to tread along under a yoke of chores. Even more so, if these holidays are secular holidays, but I'm corruptable in this: Give me a day off, and I'll even worship deities that are completely alien to me.
On the other hand, when it comes to holidays that are meaningful to me in Talossa, then there are only Sept 26 (Day of Talossan Heroes / Penguinea Day), Calondâ Gün (Day of the Foundation of the Republic of Talossa), and Dec 26 (Ziuâ dal Naziun, Founder's / Foundation Day). But everyone may have their own preferred meaningful holidays, so let there be holidays galore. See above, my Textorian hand is applauding to this, clap clap.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 11, 2014 13:55:00 GMT -6
Those are our Fiôvan holidays and I'm proud of them, but still they are only of marginal relevance to the other seven provinces.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 11, 2014 14:05:07 GMT -6
So I'm still stuck in the most recent Republican tradition of Talossa.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 11, 2014 14:28:39 GMT -6
So I'm still stuck in the most recent Republican tradition of Talossa. "Let's do the Time Warp again!"
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 11, 2014 23:33:28 GMT -6
A Time Warp - to the past, or to a glorious future?
Anyway, this thread has had the desired effect of getting a broad range of opinion on the topic. I will try to get a report to the Cabinet soon and then a proposal for the Hopper.
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Jul 12, 2014 19:06:56 GMT -6
Doesn't matter much to me what the process is. I see no cause to change any of the existing holidays, with the exception of possibly renaming the Holiday of Hatred (got no real problem with it myself, but can understand the objections of others, so I can get behind Ián's suggested compromise of renaming it to Flag Day). I can get behind this. Do we still get to say what we hate on 1 May?
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