Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 23:58:52 GMT -6
It's possible he's not really this person, but that's the name he's used ever since 2005. I hope the Cort will issue a hefty punishment short of banishment, because I believe there is still some good in him for this nation.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 27, 2013 23:59:13 GMT -6
There is no issue to be debated, and the penalty will be the same as when the person renounced. How would you know what penalty the Uppermost Cort will apply? 36RZ10 does not give a mandatory sentence, although it allows for banishment. Anyway, alea jacta est. I just sent this to the Attorney-General: Yes, I agree - the die has been cast. But honestly, what other sentence would you expect? - He defrauded the Kingdom, by voting multiple times in a General Election.
- He defrauded the Kingdom, by accepting seats to the Cosa under a false name.
- He defrauded the Zui, by proposing Bills, or at least co-authoring Bills.
- He defrauded the College of Arms, by asking for 15 grants of Arms for false identities.
- He betrayed the trust of many Citizens of the Kingdom. He lied to all of us, on many different levels.
Honestly, Meistra - and as a fellow Citizen, not as an advisory, not as a competitor, but. ..well, what ever is left? We know the outcome of a trial. He has admitted guilt. He did renounce before being convicted. There wasn't a "death penalty" issued. There wasn't any penalty issued. ( Well, except for the College doing a massive reworking of lists, etc). That does mean he can ask to have his citizenship restored. If he wants that to happen, then we can discuss where and how to proceed from there. I'm really not trying to be a pain in the arse. I just am having a problem of why we should re-instate him, to have a trial, to kick him out again.
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Post by Colonel Mximo Carbonèl on Jan 28, 2013 0:05:03 GMT -6
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Jan 28, 2013 0:06:30 GMT -6
I'm really not trying to be a pain in the arse. I just am having a problem of why we should re-instate him, to have a trial, to kick him out again. For nothing else, a lifetime ban from Talossa would be the only thing preventing Eric from applying for citizenship in the future. I am against it, but this is what some wish, and it can only be accomplished by a Court Order.
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Post by Colonel Mximo Carbonèl on Jan 28, 2013 0:10:01 GMT -6
I agree with that too...
I wait for the decision of the cort and will respect it.
Mximo
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 28, 2013 0:14:09 GMT -6
Mick, all due respect, but you're not a Justice, so how would you know what the appropriate punishment is in this situation? You can have opinions, but there are only three citizens who get to actually decide. There is no precedent here. Let open Cort decide what is the fit punishment for someone who has committed hideous crimes, but pleads guilty and expresses remorse.
I do not think it is a good precedent to submit that the punishment for any crime, no matter the circumstances, is removal of citizenship. In fact, I think it good that we take this opportunity to have a REAL criminal trial and let the Uppermost Cort itself decide what we should do in future cases of such shenanigans.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 28, 2013 0:21:55 GMT -6
Mick, all due respect, but you're not a Justice, so how would you know what the appropriate punishment is in this situation? You can have opinions, but there are only three citizens who get to actually decide. There is no precedent here. Let open Cort decide what is the fit punishment for someone who has committed hideous crimes, but pleads guilty and expresses remorse. I do not think it is a good precedent to submit that the punishment for any crime, no matter the circumstances, is removal of citizenship. In fact, I think it good that we take this opportunity to have a REAL criminal trial and let the Uppermost Cort itself decide what we should do in future cases of such shenanigans. You are correct - these were just my opinions. Mea Culpa - I was discussing this as an Attorney of the Cort, which I should have waited until an actual case was presented. I apologize.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 28, 2013 0:32:15 GMT -6
If Eiric really wants to go before the Cort, he can submit an application for immigration, write his essay, and argue that he should be given the chance. I do not know the likelihood of a verdict of revocation, but I do admit it seems much less likely if he has just been re-admitted by the normal process.
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Jan 28, 2013 0:33:31 GMT -6
In any case, the only way to get him back now is an Act of the Ziu or a Cort order. You're welcome to go for it, though if you go the Act of the Ziu route, we might not get him back till May. Unless the PM exercises her Hopper time-shortening powers. Edit (because S:r Davinescu is a ninja): Ah, I was thinking of a different situation. Yes, if he really wants his day in Cort, he could reapply.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 28, 2013 0:35:34 GMT -6
In any case, the only way to get him back now is an Act of the Ziu or a Cort order. You're welcome to go for it, though if you go the Act of the Ziu route, we might not get him back till May. Unless the PM exercises her Hopper time-shortening powers. Not time shortening. TIME TRAVEL !
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 28, 2013 0:36:36 GMT -6
Is it nessarcary for him to be a citizen seeing as he was a citizen when he commited these crimes? And even though hes a former citizen his account is still active therefore he is still in talossa therefore still subject to our laws and justices systems and rulings.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 28, 2013 0:37:36 GMT -6
Well, the A-G will have to decide whether we can try a now-renounced citizen. Let's hear his opinion. But frankly, if not I'm going to let it go. I am not that het up over this that I'm willing to actually drag this out for months and then have a trial.
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Post by Vitxalmour Conductour on Jan 28, 2013 0:41:33 GMT -6
Would our adopted sections of Wisconsin law be relevant?
There is no wording in the two relevant adopting laws to indicate that when it says "Wisconsin" or "the state" we mean "Talossa" though. Would that mean that our adopted criminal code might only work if the crimes are committed in Wisconsin?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 28, 2013 0:54:54 GMT -6
Would our adopted sections of Wisconsin law be relevant? There is no wording in the two relevant adopting laws to indicate that when it says "Wisconsin" or "the state" we mean "Talossa" though. Would that mean that our adopted criminal code might only work if the crimes are committed in Wisconsin? The IP's of the offending computer(s) were not based in Wisconsin. I am not sure where the actual "Servers" are, that hold the records of Talossa are located. So, I would say - no.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jan 28, 2013 1:06:45 GMT -6
Talossa has no agreements of extradition or the like with other countries. As a foreign national, he could still be prosecuted because he committed his crimes when under our jurisdiction, as far as I know. The OrgLaw is careful to say that all "persons" shall be tried, not all citizens, but probably Org.XVI.13 would be the most pertinent section, which calls for the invocation of generally accepted principles of Anglo-American law.
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