Flip Molinar
Talossan since 1-1-2008
Proud Talossan
Posts: 1,592
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Post by Flip Molinar on Feb 6, 2008 12:20:30 GMT -6
I will also go on record as saying that I favor a secret ballot. It is vital that are reputations and consciences not be affected by how we vote. I am not suggesting this is, or has ever been the case, but a secret ballot would ensure that it never does happen. As such, I shall support this bill should it move to a vote in the March of 2008 Clark.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 6, 2008 13:33:59 GMT -6
I , for one, am proud and honored to carry my votes upon my sleeve.
I have no concerns on who knows how and why I voted.
I will announce my votes publicly, even if one day Secret Ballots are in place.
But, of course - that day is probably very far off, so it might not matter for me.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 6, 2008 14:16:52 GMT -6
The Bill should, perhaps, explicate where to investigate, and tidy up the terms:
"THEREFORE, the Ziu hereby resolves that a committee shall be formed of three people, assigned by the Seneschal, and that that committee shall investigate pertinent examples, in the material world and online, of secret balloting techniques; and shall report back upon their methodologies, and make a recommendation upon how to use this information, to the Ziu."
With that done, the LRT backs this Bill.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Feb 6, 2008 19:43:37 GMT -6
For the reading pleasure of the nation, here is a re-print of a post I made some number of months ago.My own opinion on the topic is that public, open balloting is the right system for our nation. Like many of my fellow-citizens, I was kind of surprised to find an open balloting system in place when I first became a Talossan. However, before too long, I realised the advantages, and I am an open ballot system fan. Here are some reasons why I think it would be a mistake to move to a secret ballot system at this time: - It wouldn't be secret from the Chancery, unless we get rid of paper ballots entirely and move to an email-robot to verify and count them.
- Email robots are notoriously subject to tampering. Do we really want miscreants spending any time figuring out ways to mess with an automatically-counted Talossan election? (No, we don't, and we do know that such people exist.)
- There'd be nobody who would know for sure whether tampering had occurred.
- If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (And it's not broke, is it?)
- In a nation our size, it is very important to know who is and is not in your political party; secret ballots would allow for a lot of subterfuge -- someone could play double-agent, vote against "his" party, and then receive Cosâ seats from the leadership.
- Our citizenships expire when we fail to vote three times in a row, but counting strikes would be impossible in a secret ballot system (unless some lesser form of pure secrecy is the end-result).
Hooligan
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 6, 2008 20:24:50 GMT -6
I will address your bullet points as numbers: 1. If we gave everyone a randomly generated voting code that the Chancery would not see somehow, that would work. 2. See above 3. See above 4. See above 5. That's the whole point! It makes things much more interesting 6. We could adopt a census system that would make people accumulate strikes.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 6, 2008 20:32:49 GMT -6
I am a secret ballot skeptic, but I am open to investigating possibilities. Right now I am not aware of any possible working method that offers sufficient oversight. I am unsure if I will vote for this, but I suppose it can't do any harm.
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 6, 2008 20:43:17 GMT -6
May I ask you all whether you would support a public ballot in your native countries?
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Feb 6, 2008 20:47:02 GMT -6
I just attended a caucus, where the balloting was wide open, and I didn't mind at all, and neither did anyone else there. The U.S. had an open balloting system for a very long time and it gave us some pretty great Presidents, Senators, and Representatives.
Hooligan
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 6, 2008 20:53:51 GMT -6
Ah sure, but a Caucus is quite different from an election. Personally I would be terrified to have a public ballot! So... let's say there are two candidates:
George Blue and Eric Green
And there is an open system.
Now Eric Green wins the electoral college by 70% so 30% of people voted for George Blue. Now let's say Prez Green somehow becomes a dictator, in a military takeover or something like that, and he wants to stay in power so he wants to eliminate, or at least quite down all his non-supporters. But how is he going to find out that? Oh wait... he's got a list right there for him to read from the ballot.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 6, 2008 20:53:57 GMT -6
I will address your bullet points as numbers: 1. If we gave everyone a randomly generated voting code that the Chancery would not see somehow, that would work. 2. See above 3. See above 4. See above 5. That's the whole point! It makes things much more interesting 6. We could adopt a census system that would make people accumulate strikes. How would you generate a secret, private , random number, with the checks and balances of no one knowing if it actually belonged to the person that presented it... Oh, never mind. ========================= Like Hooligan said- I've attended many a 'town hall meeting', where I place my vote by raising my hand. I've attended many meetings on many levels that involved voting, and was done in public and in front of others. Seems to be a common occurrence in my country.
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 6, 2008 20:55:02 GMT -6
Once again I'll say that town hall meetings are extremely different from say presidential elections or in our case, Prime ministerial elections.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 6, 2008 21:01:29 GMT -6
Ah sure, but a Caucus is quite different from an election. Personally I would be terrified to have a public ballot! So... let's say there are two candidates: George Blue and Eric Green And there is an open system. Now Eric Green wins the electoral college by 70% so 30% of people voted for George Blue. Now let's say Prez Green somehow becomes a dictator, in a military takeover or something like that, and he wants to stay in power so he wants to eliminate, or at least quite down all his non-supporters. But how is he going to find out that? Oh wait... he's got a list right there for him to read from the ballot. Dreu. This ain't no comic book. It's Talossa.
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 6, 2008 21:13:36 GMT -6
I actually seriously dislike comic books... except ones written by Larry Gonick, who's pretty awesome. Anyways... couldn't that hypothetically happen in the U.S.? Hitler was democratically elected, and he did away with most of his disloyal countrymen... and about every else... but that's not the point.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 6, 2008 21:39:20 GMT -6
Dreu:
This ain't the US. This is Talossa.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 7, 2008 3:32:07 GMT -6
"In a nation our size, it is very important to know who is and is not in your political party; secret ballots would allow for a lot of subterfuge -- someone could play double-agent, vote against "his" party, and then receive Cosâ seats from the leadership."
coughCLPsecretlistscough
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