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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 6, 2014 22:14:24 GMT -6
The idea that ModRad or LibCon MCs would support the BBs back into power for the 21st century equivalent of "trinkets and beads" is just breathtaking. Ugh, it's so distasteful when you reference horrific historical crime and trivialize it. Comparing your opponents to Pinochet and Mugabe and colonial thieves for the sake of the shock value... yeesh. Don't you have any respect for the actual victims of these crimes? Do you know what percentage of their ancestral land the Algonquin currently enjoy? Do you know that tens of thousands of people were tortured or murdered under the Pinochet regime? Please don't be so shabby as to appropriate their story just for the sake of a shocking analogy. Just... yuck.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 6, 2014 22:41:33 GMT -6
Is how you justify what you do to yourself - that it's only Talossa, and therefore you can act unethically and in a gangster-like fashion because you're not actually killing anyone or stealing their property? That's how Ron Rosalez justified the "Dave gets the party" stunt of 1994 to me: "Talossa is a game. We play to win."
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 6, 2014 23:06:49 GMT -6
What?! No, I'm saying that while certainly ethics still matter in Talossa, your comparisons are odious and hugely overblown to the point of being downright distasteful!
Auguste Pinochet was a brutal dictator, and his villainy is not a punchline. To quote from the conclusions of one later report, in Pinochet's regime, "[T]orture and detention were used as a tool for political control by State authorities and perpetuated by decrees and laws that protected repressive behavior, implicitly supported by the judiciary. Torture by members of the Armed Forces and Carabineros (paramilitary police) was a generalized practice on a national scale." Almost 30,000 people were tortured, and thousands more were murdered amidst his kabuki reforms.
When you compare the RUMP or myself to people like Pinochet or Robert Mugabe or the perpetrators of Jim Crow in the American South, you don't even do it for any useful reason. There are dozens of other less offensive comparisons you could make, that don't trivialize the suffering of millions. Do you realize that Jim Crow was the brutal repression of the legitimate right to vote and live freely, and in some places ensured that slavery continued in everything but name, with thousands of innocent African-Americans forced into labor-gangs?
Just stop trying to capitalize on this stuff for shock value, okay?
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Sept 7, 2014 1:47:52 GMT -6
Is how you justify what you do to yourself - that it's only Talossa, and therefore you can act unethically and in a gangster-like fashion because you're not actually killing anyone or stealing their property? That's how Ron Rosalez justified the "Dave gets the party" stunt of 1994 to me: "Talossa is a game. We play to win." Calm down, Miestrâ, and put that dictonary of ugly invectives back on the bookshelf. You're going over the top right now.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Sept 7, 2014 5:10:09 GMT -6
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Sept 7, 2014 5:56:26 GMT -6
I voted privately...I didn't participate in the loyalty parade...what do you say to that? I say, "Thank you for that answer." Because I honestly didn't know. The difficulty with hunting for something that didn't happen is that you never really know if you just missed it or what.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Sept 7, 2014 6:05:14 GMT -6
For example, were there any RUMP mainliners (not just voter or member, but potential MC, or Senator, etc) who voted via secret ballot who then did not go and participate in the "loyalty parade?" If so, then how does the party work to ensure loyalty on the part of this individual? Not quite sure what you're asking here. What the political theorist in me wants, more than anything, is to find a way to test these suppositions that get tossed around every election. Is the public ballot a tool of party coercion? Would the results really be different if the ballot was completely public? Completely secret? Unfortunately, or current data is bound to be rife with sampling bias, as those supporters of secret balloting tend to be clustered at one end of the ideological spectrum and public partisans at the other. Yes, I've had similar thoughts. I'm not sure what kind of experiment could be created that would be of much use. If we could force every citizen to respond to an anonymous survey...
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Sept 7, 2014 6:48:06 GMT -6
For example, were there any RUMP mainliners (not just voter or member, but potential MC, or Senator, etc) who voted via secret ballot who then did not go and participate in the "loyalty parade?" If so, then how does the party work to ensure loyalty on the part of this individual? Not quite sure what you're asking here. In essence, I am trying to find examples that might cut across biases, IE RUMP folks who voted privately (and who kept their votes to themselves) as well as those who voted publicly who come from the end of the spectrum that tends to favour the secret ballot. The latter were easy enough to find because they announced themselves. The former less so, by their very nature.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Sept 7, 2014 7:00:49 GMT -6
In essence, I am trying to find examples that might cut across biases, IE RUMP folks who voted privately (and who kept their votes to themselves) as well as those who voted publicly who come from the end of the spectrum that tends to favour the secret ballot. The latter were easy enough to find because they announced themselves. The former less so, by their very nature. Ah, gotcha. D:r dal Nordselva identified himself already. Sir Alexandreu and Sir Trotxa voted publicly this time, but both cast secret ballots in the last election. So that's the current party leader, the former party leader and last RUMP seneschal, and a RUMP senator.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 7, 2014 16:56:45 GMT -6
Do you realize that Jim Crow was the brutal repression of the legitimate right to vote and live freely, Of course I do. And the public ballot - which enables cronyism, and encourages the formation of "Loyalty Parades" of inactive hand-raisers - is Talossa's equivalent. It's a hangover from KR1's tyranny, like Jim Crow was a hang-over from slavery. But that's not what I'm doing, pace Ián. I really do believe that this is how you feel and think. I believe that you don't sincerely believe the nonsense you talk justifying the customs which kept you in power for so long, like the publically ballot. I believe you - personally, this is directed to AD, not the rest of the RUMP - to be consciously cynical, and that you use your brilliant legal mind to come up with plausible-sounding justifications for maintaining your personal power and prestige. This is my sincere belief. Yes, you aren't torturing anyone, or even turning firehoses on peaceful protestors, or - to use a Talossan example - trying to dig up dirt on a political opponent's private life. But you might want to ask yourself why your overtures for coalition governments to moderate monarchists have been rebuffed. It couldn't be anything to do with how you behave... could it? No, it must be someone else's fault! I am saying this in the hope that you might be prepared to change your ways and be a good democratic citizen in future.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Sept 7, 2014 17:13:17 GMT -6
trying to dig up dirt on a political opponent's private life. Hey everyone! I have a scoop on dirt from Miestra's private life! I have it from good authority that there is dirt in her bedroom... Behind her bedside table, there is some dust that wasn't properly vaccummed the last time she cleaned it! Shocking isn't it? (I am not being sarcastic, I just find that English saying funny, even if it's something tragic... In other words, I fine the WORDS funny but not what they stand for...)
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 7, 2014 18:22:32 GMT -6
trying to dig up dirt on a political opponent's private life. Hey everyone! I have a scoop on dirt from Miestra's private life! I have it from good authority that there is dirt in her bedroom... Behind her bedside table, there is some dust that wasn't properly vaccummed the last time she cleaned it! HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THAT?!?! UNLESS... YOU'RE A SORCEROR!!!
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 7, 2014 20:01:46 GMT -6
Do you realize that Jim Crow was the brutal repression of the legitimate right to vote and live freely, Of course I do. And the public ballot - which enables cronyism, and encourages the formation of "Loyalty Parades" of inactive hand-raisers - is Talossa's equivalent. It's a hangover from KR1's tyranny, like Jim Crow was a hang-over from slavery. The two aren't comparable, and your comparison is odious. This might just be a failure of information. "Jim Crow" refers to the system of oppressive laws put in place in the American South after the end of the Reconstruction period (when the northern states had a strong presence in governing the South). It was a way to try to bring back slavery, as much as possible after a war had been fought to end that repugnant institution. Under Jim Crow laws, black people were essentially prohibited from voting in all of the Confederacy, ensuring they received no political representation to speak of. African-American children went to terrible schools or no schools at all; they got few or no social services; and in many areas there were special vagrancy laws that allowed local officials to basically re-enslave African-Americans and rent them out for forced labor. This state of affairs lasted until the American civil rights movement began to push back, heroically. There are numerous extremely interesting histories of the horrors of Jim Crow and the struggles of the civil rights warriors (like Rosa Parks or MLK). And Michelle Alexander has actually published a persuasive book called The New Jim Crow which suggests that the criminal justice system's war on drugs in America is simply a third form of this oppression, and that Jim Crow's oppression has only changed once again. I can assure you: whatever mild political oppression you feel from the fact that I dare to disagree with you on whether we need a public ballot option is in no way comparable to Jim Crow. I find it really unpleasant when you try to capitalize on something so grotesque in history as an inflammatory way to pretend that my outrageous insistence on having a different opinion somehow oppresses you. Please stop. But that's not what I'm doing, pace Ián. I really do believe that this is how you feel and think. I believe that you don't sincerely believe the nonsense you talk justifying the customs which kept you in power for so long, like the publically ballot. I believe you - personally, this is directed to AD, not the rest of the RUMP - to be consciously cynical, and that you use your brilliant legal mind to come up with plausible-sounding justifications for maintaining your personal power and prestige. This is my sincere belief. Yes, you aren't torturing anyone, or even turning firehoses on peaceful protestors, or - to use a Talossan example - trying to dig up dirt on a political opponent's private life. But you might want to ask yourself why your overtures for coalition governments to moderate monarchists have been rebuffed. It couldn't be anything to do with how you behave... could it? No, it must be someone else's fault! I am saying this in the hope that you might be prepared to change your ways and be a good democratic citizen in future. See, now this is a nasty and unnecessary personal attack on me, but at least it doesn't trivialize genocide, mass torture, or decades of racial oppression for your own gain.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Sept 7, 2014 20:33:18 GMT -6
And once again, you just ignore it. I am trying to help, Sir Alex. The smug brushing-off of any and all criticism which served you so well when yours was the permanent governing party will just serve to isolate you and your party further and further in opposition, especially now Fortress Senäts has crumbled. The moderate monarchist parties are aghast at the sheer arrogance and meanness of your coalition offers. I am suggesting that you are heading for permanent sidelining from Talossan political life unless you learn how to stop coming off as what the British would call "a pompous git" to your political opponents.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Sept 7, 2014 20:38:26 GMT -6
Thank you for your well-meant advice, Dame Miestra. I will consider it in the same spirit it was offered.
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