Petition for a Happier Kingdom

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Jan 24, 2013 21:25:42 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

Jan 24, 2013 21:12:04 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

I'm not suggesting denying or infringing on Speech.

Freedom of speech includes the freedom of where to say it. It's like saying an American can only partake in political debate in front of the Capitol but not in the pub. The freedom comes not just in what we want to say, but, also in the choice of venue. Wittenberg is the most public area we have and thus this plan would deny citizens from making political statements in the most public place.

Except, you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded movie house. Speech is limited in areas in the USA. What the USA 1st Amendment says is that "Freedom of Speech" cannot be abridge by CONGRESS. It doesn't say you can go mock your boss, and he can't fire you.

They don't need to read threads they don't want to. If they hate political talk that much, why are they continuing to read an entire thread that they don't want to read?

If I buy a newspaper I read the headlines and into blurb. If it's not for me then the rest of that article is skipped.

Except - debates break out on almost every thread. Why should I stop reading a thread about a subject because a Monarchist and a Republican start a fight in the middle of it?

Let's have people know that if they go into Wittenberg, they don't have to read inter-party or intra-party messages about Politics.

Why? Again, If people don't like politics that much then they need not read. I also echo GV again here. Politics is a MASSIVE part of Talossa. Why brush it aside like this?

Again, I am NOT suggesting we "brush it aside" . I am suggesting we take the discussion to an area where everyone knows it's there.

In the USA, on TV - you can't show some things before 10pm. People know that. They know that some channels are allowed to use mild profanity, while the Disney Channel will never do that.

People do not have that promise as it is now. I would like them to have that option.

[Pôl d'Aurìbuérg]

It would be encouraged for citizens to post their political discussions there, not enforced.

[Eðo Grischun]

Jan 24, 2013 21:36:59 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

Except, you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded movie house.

Because you would incite fear and panic. That's not what we are talking about, your analogy is irrelevant. Essentially banning someone from making a polite and well thought out political statement (I submit that that is the opposite of what has been going on as of late as things have been terribly over the top) in a particular place is against freedom.

Speech is limited in areas in the USA. What the USA 1st Amendment says is that "Freedom of Speech" cannot be abridge by CONGRESS.

What freedom of speech should be and what actually happens in the macronational world are two different things. Didn't we, mostly, all come to Talossa to make things different and better than the systems we were used to living under?

It doesn't say you can go mock your boss, and he can't fire you.

Again, not relevant. We are not talking about mocking the boss, we are talking about limiting the areas in which political debate is allowed. Going onto Wittenberg and saying something crappy to someone is very different from being permitted the ability to make a political statement in open air (so long as that statement is not misleading, libelous or plain rude).

Except - debates break out on almost every thread. Why should I stop reading a thread about a subject because a Monarchist and a Republican start a fight in the middle of it?

You are right. The threads get off topic way too easy.

In the USA, on TV - you can't show some things before 10pm. People know that. They know that some channels are allowed to use mild profanity, while the Disney Channel will never do that.

People do not have that promise as it is now. I would like them to have that option.

Again, this is not TV. This is the virtualised public arena of a nation. If someone makes a political remark on the bus, in the papers, in the work canteen or in the street I don't have the option to not hear it. I have the options to ignore it or not and refuse to get worked up by it or not.

***

The problem is not in having too many political statements being made in public here. The problem is the nature of the speech. There is a lack of regard towards Wittiquette.

WITTIQUETTE RULE 4: In political discussions especially, exercise restraint, respect, and moderation.

This is not being adhered to, nor enforced. THIS is the problem.


(edit, quote tags are a real pain)

[Eðo Grischun]

Jan 24, 2013 21:48:37 GMT -6 Pôl d'Aurìbuérg said:

It would be encouraged for citizens to post their political discussions there, not enforced.

Well, that's different. Okay, fair enough, I guess. So, I'll still have the freedom to post whatever I like (within Wittiquette guidelines) wherever I want?

[M.T. Patritz da Biondeu]

QUOTE: Because you would incite fear and panic. That's not what we are talking about, your analogy is irrelevant. Essentially banning someone from making a polite and well thought out political statement (I submit that that is the opposite of what has been going on as of late as things have been terribly over the top) in a particular place is against freedom.

Comment: Some of the political arguments here DO incite fear and panic... and then anger when they are over.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Jan 24, 2013 22:06:33 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

Except, you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded movie house.

Because you would incite fear and panic. That's not what we are talking about, your analogy is irrelevant. Essentially banning someone from making a polite and well thought out political statement (I submit that that is the opposite of what has been going on as of late as things have been terribly over the top) in a particular place is against freedom.

Where did you get "Banning"? I said nothing about "banning". I said let's discuss it elsewhere.

Going onto Wittenberg and saying something crappy to someone is very different from being permitted the ability to make a political statement in open air (so long as that statement is not misleading, libelous or plain rude).

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. You make all the political statements you want - in a specific board for that.

You are right. The threads get off topic way too easy.



Again, this is not TV. This is the virtualised public arena of a nation. If someone makes a political remark on the bus, in the papers, in the work canteen or in the street I don't have the option to not hear it. I have the options to ignore it or not and refuse to get worked up by it or not.

***

The problem is not in having too many political statements being made in public here. The problem is the nature of the speech. There is a lack of regard towards Wittiquette.

WITTIQUETTE RULE 4: In political discussions especially, exercise restraint, respect, and moderation.

This is not being adhered to, nor enforced. THIS is the problem.

But what if that bus is the only way you can get to work? What if you are having a pleasant conversation with another person, and a fight breaks out next to you? Are you still required to ride that bus, to have a conversation with that friend, even though a fight breaks out every day?

Or can you ask those that fight to take another bus, that better suits their needs?

What I am seeing in all of this is that some want to disregard the comments of the people -especially those that are thinking about joining this Kingdom, so they can keep a status quo that is driving people away.

I am trying to offer an idea that will bring both sides to a happy medium.

Edit: I need to clean this up...

[Eðo Grischun]

and I am saying that this is a new problem. The current setup worked prior to this recent nonsense.

On that bus, if people are causing that much hassle I would expect the law to deal with the trouble makers. I would expect the bus conductor to throw the rabble rousers off the bus or phone 999 (911).

This current spate of nonsense on the boards is down to a lack of respect for the Wittenberg usage guidelines. They need enforced. The 'police' need to do their job and not expect me to go ride another bus.

[M.T. Patritz da Biondeu]

What are we going to do to the one's who violate the rules? Spank them?

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Jan 24, 2013 22:18:52 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

and I am saying that this is a new problem. The current setup worked prior to this recent nonsense.

On that bus, if people are causing that much hassle I would expect the law to deal with the trouble makers. I would expect the bus conductor to throw the rabble rousers off the bus or phone 999 (911).

This current spate of nonsense on the boards is down to a lack of respect for the Wittenberg usage guidelines. They need enforced. The 'police' need to do their job and not expect me to go ride another bus.

But how long do they stay off that bus, until the police come by to clean it up?

Again, I am not saying people can't be political. I'm just suggesting we make an area where everyone knows that political comments are going to be made - and they don't have to ride that bus if they don't want to.

They also know that they can ride the bus that won't get hijacked by the hooligans that want to discuss politics.

[M.T. Patritz da Biondeu]

Just another note... from the actual rules post.

"Keep in mind, when you’re posting on Wittenberg, that everything you write will be visible not only to other Talossans and our guests, but to the world at large. People judge Talossa based on how they see us behaving. Wittenberg posts show up on Google searches."

A political board with a nice disclosure about it's content would let people know "Oh hey, this is their politics... Fierce! But oh look at here on Wittenberg board, they are talking about setting up a thing called TalossaFest!"

I guess what the nation needs to decide... are we going to be hardcore politics only, or do we want politics and other things that make a nation a nation?

[Eðo Grischun]

Jan 24, 2013 22:21:10 GMT -6 M.T. Patritz da Biondeu said:

What are we going to do to the one's who violate the rules? Spank them?

Well, I don't really know how to respond to that. I've been civil in my discussion so far. For someone complaining about the lack of civility you certainly can bring a bit of bad attitude to the table, sir.

[M.T. Patritz da Biondeu]

No, my point is... What are you really going to do to punish them?

You can't lock them up in jail. You can't fine them.
You can't bar them from getting political seats.
You can't inhibit their speech.
You can't remove their citizenship.

You can't remove them from the forums without inciting a huge argument on inhibiting speech.

So really, what can be done?

PS: My spanking comment, was a joke. Which poorly translates over internet. So I apologize for that if it was offensive.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Eðo -

I honestly didn't take his comment that way - maybe a bit frustrated, but not rude.

I don't think he meant it that way.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

My question now is -

Why are some of our Citizens not even willing to try this?

[M.T. Patritz da Biondeu]

And on a side note, I'd totally be okay with a board being established 160 degrees different from the petition... a NO political debate board so I can be one of the "namby-pamby tribbles who talk about nothing more than unicorns and rainbows" citizens.