The One More Step Towards Individual Freedom Act

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Dec 9, 2012 12:42:57 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

So, I can be King of 15 other micronations, and you all wouldn't have a problem with that?

Dunno about the ModRads, but as for me, not at all. I also don't care if you're an Elk, a Mason, a Communist, the president of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance, a Callithumpian or a Yellowbelly. All I care about is what you do in Talossa. INDEED: our experience in the days of Penguinea was that those citizens who were also active leaders of other micronations were the most active and committed Penguineans (Textor, Choconia, Mowameddo etc). We were sort of like the "champions league of micronations", where people who were tired of playing bathtub kingdom could "step up" to real nation-building without having to cut ties with their old fcriends.

I applaud the ModRads for this bill (although my preference would be to repeal the S-P Wall altogether because I doubt that there are any micronations worth blacklisting) and would like to add myself as co-sponsor.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Dec 9, 2012 17:59:23 GMT -6 Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu said:

But if we're going to trust the electorate on one thing. Should we not on others as well?

I can trust the Talossan electorate. Other micro-nations? Not so much.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Xenophobia is usually a consequence of ignorance, and Mick, I doubt that - after being part of a regime for 6 years which refuses to admit that other Talossa-like entities exist - you actually know what the micronational world is like that now. Let Talossa regain its rightful place as leadership of the Talossa-like and Talossa-inspired entities, which Mad Ben threw away in 1998 from paranoia, spite, and a personal grudge against me.

[Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu]

Dec 9, 2012 18:31:05 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

Dec 9, 2012 17:59:23 GMT -6 Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu said:

But if we're going to trust the electorate on one thing. Should we not on others as well?

I can trust the Talossan electorate. Other micro-nations? Not so much.

We don't have to worry about other electorates. If we trust ours to make the decision, then the Semi-permeable wall is nothing more than an infringements on personal freedom and inorganic violation of the right to free association.

Unless we're recognizing Talossa's status as a micronation and the possible legitimacy of other similar entities. Then that's another kettle of fish.

[Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă]

Dec 9, 2012 17:47:49 GMT -6 Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu said:

Dec 9, 2012 17:23:46 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

What if they are elected?

Haven't the RUMP been setting a goodly deal of stock on their governmental legitimacy on the fact they have been handily elected? Shall we set the will of the electorate aside when inconvenient?

I think we can trust the people as well.

Why does one member of the RUMP's concerns mean the entire RUMP is somehow involved?

I'm not sure where I stand on this bill, but I would volunteer to fix the grammar :-)

Also, I believe Talossa should have relations with other smaller nations. Miestra, I'd be curious to find out if there are others out there, perhaps a little information on that for me?

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Dec 9, 2012 18:34:14 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Xenophobia is usually a consequence of ignorance, and Mick, I doubt that - after being part of a regime for 6 years which refuses to admit that other Talossa-like entities exist - you actually know what the micronational world is like that now.

So good to see that you know so much about me, that I didn't even know myself.

Perhaps you can delve into other areas of my ignorance, and tell me what else I don't know?

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Since the Republic has been brought up as an example of this policy, how did that work out? S:da Schiva, you say that many of those who were most active in the Republic also belonged to other micronations - I don't recognize the names you list, though. This leads me to believe that, to the contrary, they were active for a time and have since vanished, whereas those who stuck it out were exclusively Talossan. Is this not the case?

[Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu]

Dec 9, 2012 18:58:12 GMT -6 Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă said:

Why does one member of the RUMP's concerns mean the entire RUMP is somehow involved?

It doesn't. I'm just drawing off of some of S:reu Preston's earlier statements regarding the electorate.

Dec 9, 2012 19:13:06 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Since the Republic has been brought up as an example of this policy, how did that work out?

Well, we know how it worked out. Though I'm somewhat fuzzy in regards to Regipats precise legal definition of the Republic. I know it was an impossibility to recognize as another sovereign nation of the world.

[Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu]

Oh, clarification. Choconia, Momweddo, and Textor are micronations. Not people. Actually, Choconia was the sponsoring nation that helped my own Amador get admission to the LOSS.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Dec 9, 2012 19:23:38 GMT -6 Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu said:

Dec 9, 2012 19:13:06 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Since the Republic has been brought up as an example of this policy, how did that work out?

Well, we know how it worked out. Though I'm somewhat fuzzy in regards to Regipats precise legal definition of the Republic. I know it was an impossibility to recognize as another sovereign nation of the world.

I'm sorry, my comment may have seemed snarky. I really didn't mean it in a nasty "well it didn't work for you guys" ignoble sort of way, and I apologize if it seemed like I did.

No, I was actually honestly asking for information. S:da Schiva suggests that people who participated in other micronations were actually far more active in the Republic. My suspicion is that they were very active for a short time, but soon other loyalties or interests took over and they quit. I think this may highlight the fact that the ban on micronational citizenship helps (a) focus people on Talossa and (b) discourage those who are collecting countries, both of which are good things. If these active people were flashes in the pan, then that strengthens my argument. But I don't actually know, and it's possible that those Republicans who rejoined Talossa may have also been active in other micronations. I don't think so, but I'd like to hear more about the Republic's experience with this matter, since that seems like the best proof for the efficacy or failure of the demolition of the Wall.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Dec 9, 2012 19:13:06 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Since the Republic has been brought up as an example of this policy, how did that work out? S:da Schiva, you say that many of those who were most active in the Republic also belonged to other micronations - I don't recognize the names you list, though. This leads me to believe that, to the contrary, they were active for a time and have since vanished, whereas those who stuck it out were exclusively Talossan. Is this not the case?

Okay, some misconceptions. I was talking about the Free Commonwealth of Penguinea (1998-2001) rather than the Talossan Republic (2004-2012). The nations I listed were some of those whom Penguinean leaders belonged to. As to who stuck around, the Prime Minister of Textor and the Emperor of Aerica were President and Seneschál of the Republic respectively, and they are here with us today.

The big difference is that Penguinea existed during the micronational boom years which are long past. The only formal friendships that the Republic had were with Septempontia and Héalie. Others were interested, but only until they realised we weren't playing the "mutual diplomatic recognition" game, or Almighty preserve us, the "recwar" game. This is another reason why the S-P Wall should be repealed - the world it responded to has ceased to exist. It would be like the modern French Republic continuing to man the Maginot Line.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Dec 9, 2012 20:26:33 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Dec 9, 2012 19:13:06 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Since the Republic has been brought up as an example of this policy, how did that work out? S:da Schiva, you say that many of those who were most active in the Republic also belonged to other micronations - I don't recognize the names you list, though. This leads me to believe that, to the contrary, they were active for a time and have since vanished, whereas those who stuck it out were exclusively Talossan. Is this not the case?

Okay, some misconceptions. I was talking about the Free Commonwealth of Penguinea (1998-2001) rather than the Talossan Republic (2004-2012). The nations I listed were some of those whom Penguinean leaders belonged to. As to who stuck around, the Prime Minister of Textor and the Emperor of Aerica were President and Seneschál of the Republic respectively, and they are here with us today.

The big difference is that Penguinea existed during the micronational boom years which are long past. The only formal friendships that the Republic had were with Septempontia and Héalie. Others were interested, but only until they realised we weren't playing the "mutual diplomatic recognition" game, or Almighty preserve us, the "recwar" game. This is another reason why the S-P Wall should be repealed - the world it responded to has ceased to exist. It would be like the modern French Republic continuing to man the Maginot Line.

Had this been in the original justification of the Act, I would have responded differently.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Dec 9, 2012 20:26:33 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Dec 9, 2012 19:13:06 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Since the Republic has been brought up as an example of this policy, how did that work out? S:da Schiva, you say that many of those who were most active in the Republic also belonged to other micronations - I don't recognize the names you list, though. This leads me to believe that, to the contrary, they were active for a time and have since vanished, whereas those who stuck it out were exclusively Talossan. Is this not the case?

Okay, some misconceptions. I was talking about the Free Commonwealth of Penguinea (1998-2001) rather than the Talossan Republic (2004-2012). The nations I listed were some of those whom Penguinean leaders belonged to. As to who stuck around, the Prime Minister of Textor and the Emperor of Aerica were President and Seneschál of the Republic respectively, and they are here with us today.

The big difference is that Penguinea existed during the micronational boom years which are long past. The only formal friendships that the Republic had were with Septempontia and Héalie. Others were interested, but only until they realised we weren't playing the "mutual diplomatic recognition" game, or Almighty preserve us, the "recwar" game. This is another reason why the S-P Wall should be repealed - the world it responded to has ceased to exist. It would be like the modern French Republic continuing to man the Maginot Line.

That's interesting. I knew that many among us have other micronations in their past (which makes sense). But you also seem to be arguing that there are no longer really any other micronations of which to speak. I agree that this is mostly the case; compared to what it previously looked like, there are perhaps a tenth as many micronations as there used to be. But this does seem to cause a problem with your overall argument, doesn't it?

Either there are people who want to join micronations but cannot (in which case the Wall continues to be necessary), or there is no such clamor (in which case the Wall's continuance will do no harm). If the former is the case, then the Germans are still massed along the French border. If the latter, then no one at all is being impeded.

We should also note that the Wall requires no effort to maintain, and in fact this bill would actually greatly increase the amount of effort, since it will entail scrutiny and decision about each micronation as it becomes an issue - rather than only needing a decision if a citizen requests it. In that sense, it's really more of a moat than a wall. And you don't fill in your moat just because you're not under siege at the moment.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Dec 9, 2012 21:30:08 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

But you also seem to be arguing that there are no longer really any other micronations of which to speak.

What? No, there are some (including the two I mentioned), but there's no longer a swarm of them.

Either there are people who want to join micronations but cannot (in which case the Wall continues to be necessary),

Can we please stop with the warped Madison-era language? Talossa is a micronation, i.e. an organised but unrecognized nation-like entity. A serious micronation is a Talossa-like entity, and Talossa should extend the hand of friendship and the mantle of leadership to these entities, to teach them, learn from them and mutually grow.

For example, Septempontia is a far less "cyber" nation than Talossa, in that most Septempontians live in the "Greater Septempontia Area", for want of a better name, and their website is pretty dead because they do most of their Septempontianizing face-to-face. Isn't that a possible source of inspiration for our own nation?

Other micronations include ridiculous "bath-tub and pot-plant" fantasies (like Talossa itself, 1979-82) and are harmless and should be ignored. I see no reason, no reason at all why Talossan citizens shouldn't be allowed to play Grand Poobah of Bathtubistan in their personal time.

We should also note that the Wall requires no effort to maintain,

I suppose there is no direct cost to being isolationist - except an opportunity cost.

and in fact this bill would actually greatly increase the amount of effort, since it will entail scrutiny and decision about each micronation as it becomes an issue

Well, true, which is why, Mr General Secretary, we should TEAR DOWN THIS WALL. But the ModRad proposal is a possible compromise.

And you don't fill in your moat just because you're not under siege at the moment.

LOL, under siege? Another example of how the RUMP took over prejudices from the KR1-era and never examined them. Talossa has NEVER been "beseiged" by micronations. For a brief time in 1997, several dubious entities pestered us for mutual recognition, and the best response was that given by Evan G. as foreign minister at the time - "if you exist, you exist, we're not going to diplomatically recognize you". Mad Ben thought we were "beseiged" only because other micronationalists got annoyed at his rudeness and were rude and pompous back. Nothing worse than that. Mad Ben thought he was being hacked but that was just him not knowing how to erect a firewall.

And then, of course, there was Penguinea. The Wall was built to stop Talossans participating in Penguinea - Charles Sauls, in particular - and was nothing but an act of spite and malice against us and an attempted "thought control"/bullying/delegitimization of the Penguinea/other micronation-friendly opposition.

There was NEVER ANY REASON FOR THIS WALL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Munditenens Tresplet]

Look, either tear down the wall completely, or leave it up. In the end, this Act will do nothing but complicate things--anyone can hold dual or multiple citizenships with other micronations, except in circumstances as defined by the Ziu. If a Talossan were to join up with another micronation, or someone was to become Talossan while being a citizen of another micronation, he or she will never completely be in the free and clear--at any time the Ziu can just pull the plug on the micronation they belong to, and that will be it for the citizen. That is much more ambiguous than just saying that "If you're a citizen of another country you can't be one here." At least we know what the true position is under current law. (Same would be if we just completely legalized it--"Anyone is welcome regardless of other citizenship, period.")