The One More Step Towards Individual Freedom Act

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

I have to agree with Munditenens (Dien) Tresplet.

Make it all or nothing.

Let's not tap dance on the issue.

Either a Talossan Citizen can join any or all micro nations, or they can't.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Dec 9, 2012 22:24:29 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Can we please stop with the warped Madison-era language? Talossa is a micronation, i.e. an organised but unrecognized nation-like entity. A serious micronation is a Talossa-like entity, and Talossa should extend the hand of friendship and the mantle of leadership to these entities, to teach them, learn from them and mutually grow.

You can choose your own semantics, but I personally think that any attempt by Talossa to become a leader among micronations would just devolve into concerns over embassies, squabbling over titles, and the like. We should concentrate on Talossa, not on micronations.

Dec 9, 2012 22:24:29 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

For example, Septempontia is a far less "cyber" nation than Talossa, in that most Septempontians live in the "Greater Septempontia Area", for want of a better name, and their website is pretty dead because they do most of their Septempontianizing face-to-face. Isn't that a possible source of inspiration for our own nation?

Absolutely it is! That's a really cool thing. If any Septempontians want to join Talossa, or any Talossans want to join them, then I think it would merit serious consideration to put them on the whitelist.

But it's never happened yet, with any micronation.

Dec 9, 2012 22:24:29 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Other micronations include ridiculous "bath-tub and pot-plant" fantasies (like Talossa itself, 1979-82) and are harmless and should be ignored. I see no reason, no reason at all why Talossan citizens shouldn't be allowed to play Grand Poobah of Bathtubistan in their personal time.

As I've mentioned before in previous discussions, I think that it makes us less serious to permit people to collect citizenship like bottlecaps. Please forestall the immediate memetic mockery about serious business: I know that many others do not consider Talossa important, but I do. Maintaining our independence is a way of maintaining our dignity, setting ourselves apart, and conserving our citizens' interest. We want Talossans who are interested in Talossa, not just collecting micronations. It's true that there is some slight restrain on behavior because of this - you cannot just stroll through and collect citizenships to Talossa along with a dozen micronations. But in recognition of this, the law provides for anyone who is earnest and serious about both citizenships to circumvent this restriction. It's a wall, but a wall with a door, free for the passage. But no one's ever even knocked, so I don't much see the oppression.

Dec 9, 2012 22:24:29 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Well, true, which is why, Mr General Secretary, we should TEAR DOWN THIS WALL. But the ModRad proposal is a possible compromise.

I have to admit that I did not expect you to begin comparing yourself to Ronald Reagan.

Dec 9, 2012 22:24:29 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

LOL, under siege? Another example of how the RUMP took over prejudices from the KR1-era and never examined them. Talossa has NEVER been "beseiged" by micronations. For a brief time in 1997, several dubious entities pestered us for mutual recognition, and the best response was that given by Evan G. as foreign minister at the time - "if you exist, you exist, we're not going to diplomatically recognize you". Mad Ben thought we were "beseiged" only because other micronationalists got annoyed at his rudeness and were rude and pompous back. Nothing worse than that. Mad Ben thought he was being hacked but that was just him not knowing how to erect a firewall.

And then, of course, there was Penguinea. The Wall was built to stop Talossans participating in Penguinea - Charles Sauls, in particular - and was nothing but an act of spite and malice against us and an attempted "thought control"/bullying/delegitimization of the Penguinea/other micronation-friendly opposition.

There was NEVER ANY REASON FOR THIS WALL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It was a metaphor. I do not think we have been or will be besieged by micronations. We have only been - to use your words "pestered" by a "problem" - and it was solved by simply stepping away. I just don't want to step back into it, particularly because I see hosts of micronations that done so and collapsed into ignominy. I understand you feel very strongly about this, but please don't seize on a metaphor as if it was the point of the argument. Ben hated Penguinea and was very pompous, so he made a law. Just because I want to keep the law does not mean I hate Penguinea, you, or anyone else. I just happen to think he stumbled onto a law that is good for other reasons - the ones I have mentioned.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Dec 9, 2012 22:44:44 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

Look, either tear down the wall completely, or leave it up.

Well, okay then. I propose MY OWN bill, which I would like to be put on the same Clark as the "One More Step" bill...

THE FINAL STEP TOWARDS INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM ACT

BE IT ENACTED THAT:
1. 25RZ50, The Semi-Permeable Wall, is hereby repealed.
2. The Government of Talossa shall not engage in any treaty, agreement or diplomatic relations with any other nation or nation-like entity except where authorised to by law.

(Section 2 will stop idiots pestering us for nothing, but otherwise allow the Government to be friendly, frosty or neutral to any and all micronationalists as they see fit. If we tell them "we would need to pass a law to diplomatically recognize you", the 12-year-olds would quickly get bored and vanish.)

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Dec 9, 2012 23:20:13 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Dec 9, 2012 22:44:44 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

Look, either tear down the wall completely, or leave it up.

Well, okay then. I propose MY OWN bill, which I would like to be put on the same Clark as the "One More Step" bill...

THE FINAL STEP TOWARDS INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM ACT

BE IT ENACTED THAT:
1. 25RZ50, The Semi-Permeable Wall, is hereby repealed.
2. The Government of Talossa shall not engage in any treaty, agreement or diplomatic relations with any other nation or nation-like entity except where authorised to by law.

(Section 2 will stop idiots pestering us for nothing, but otherwise allow the Government to be friendly, frosty or neutral to any and all micronationalists as they see fit. If we tell them "we would need to pass a law to diplomatically recognize you", the 12-year-olds would quickly get bored and vanish.)

That will also repeal this section:

5. The Ziu stipulates that no part of this Act is intended to limit the free speech and assembly rights of or discriminate against any and all Talossan citizens to privately associate with any individual of their own choosing, including citizens of other micronations.

So, you are suggesting that no Talossan ever, can talk to any non-Talossan Micro-nationalist, ever?

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Dec 9, 2012 23:20:13 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Dec 9, 2012 22:44:44 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

Look, either tear down the wall completely, or leave it up.

Well, okay then. I propose MY OWN bill, which I would like to be put on the same Clark as the "One More Step" bill...

THE FINAL STEP TOWARDS INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM ACT

BE IT ENACTED THAT:
1. 25RZ50, The Semi-Permeable Wall, is hereby repealed.
2. The Government of Talossa shall not engage in any treaty, agreement or diplomatic relations with any other nation or nation-like entity except where authorised to by law.

(Section 2 will stop idiots pestering us for nothing, but otherwise allow the Government to be friendly, frosty or neutral to any and all micronationalists as they see fit. If we tell them "we would need to pass a law to diplomatically recognize you", the 12-year-olds would quickly get bored and vanish.)

I think that it would be good to see this bill, and encourage you to propose a finished version. You will also, I think, need to repeal the other bills that have clarified or amended 25RZ50.

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Thank you for all the feedback and criticism. I will add the co-sponsors and fix grammatical issues as soon as i get to the computer. Again, I'm sorry for those mistakes.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Dec 9, 2012 23:27:04 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

So, you are suggesting that no Talossan ever, can talk to any non-Talossan Micro-nationalist, ever?

Don't be silly, Mick. With SPWall gone there will be no law allowing the Government to interfere with the activities of its citizens vis-a-vis other self-described nations.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Dec 9, 2012 23:49:20 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Dec 9, 2012 23:27:04 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

So, you are suggesting that no Talossan ever, can talk to any non-Talossan Micro-nationalist, ever?

Don't be silly, Mick. With SPWall gone there will be no law allowing the Government to interfere with the activities of its citizens vis-a-vis other self-described nations.

There isn't one now. Just a FYI.

But you want to repeal that , right?

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Yes, and what's your point?

[Alèx Soleighlfred]

Dec 9, 2012 15:14:20 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

I have two problems with this bill. The first is that it is riddled with errors and poor phrasing. "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs should keep a Black List of micronations that are considered threat for the Kingdom of Talossa or in any way seriously coincide and interfere with the interests of the Kingdom" should be "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs shall keep a blacklist of micronations that are considered athreat to the Kingdom of Talossa or in any way interfere with the interests of the Kingdom."

Fixed.

[Glüc da Dhi]

Dec 9, 2012 23:20:13 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Dec 9, 2012 22:44:44 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

Look, either tear down the wall completely, or leave it up.

Well, okay then. I propose MY OWN bill, which I would like to be put on the same Clark as the "One More Step" bill...

THE FINAL STEP TOWARDS INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM ACT

BE IT ENACTED THAT:
1. 25RZ50, The Semi-Permeable Wall, is hereby repealed.
2. The Government of Talossa shall not engage in any treaty, agreement or diplomatic relations with any other nation or nation-like entity except where authorised to by law.

(Section 2 will stop idiots pestering us for nothing, but otherwise allow the Government to be friendly, frosty or neutral to any and all micronationalists as they see fit. If we tell them "we would need to pass a law to diplomatically recognize you", the 12-year-olds would quickly get bored and vanish.)

I think you want to repeal 37RZ2 as well, since this alone doesnt change the ban on dual citizenship.

[Glüc da Dhi]

Dec 9, 2012 22:44:44 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

Look, either tear down the wall completely, or leave it up. In the end, this Act will do nothing but complicate things--anyone can hold dual or multiple citizenships with other micronations, except in circumstances as defined by the Ziu. If a Talossan were to join up with another micronation, or someone was to become Talossan while being a citizen of another micronation, he or she will never completely be in the free and clear--at any time the Ziu can just pull the plug on the micronation they belong to, and that will be it for the citizen. That is much more ambiguous than just saying that "If you're a citizen of another country you can't be one here." At least we know what the true position is under current law. (Same would be if we just completely legalized it--"Anyone is welcome regardless of other citizenship, period.")

Well, in the current situation there is room for exceptions as well. Even if we completely removed 37RZ2 would be repealed the ziu can always bring it back again. I hoped this would be a decent compromise. How about raising the requirements for nations to be blacklisted?

[Óïn Ursüm]

There seems to be a misconception that the "Semi-Permeable Wall" has something to say about membership of micronations.

It does not.

This is its text:

THEREFORE the Ziu resolves that a "Semi-Permeable Wall" ought to be and is the Official External Policy of the Kingdom of Talossa. Specifically,

The Ziu stipulates that all official micronational diplomatic recognitions by the Government of Talossa, whether by legislation, executive fiat, or implicit policy, are hereby withdrawn and disavowed in the spirit of goodwill and friendship that they were initially offered; and

The Ziu stipulates by statute that the Government of Talossa will have no relations with any micronation in any form; and

The Ziu requests that the Prime Minister thank the Micronational Affairs Minister for his time, efforts, and service to the Kingdom, and then close that Ministry as contrary to the wishes of the Talossan people as expressed through their elected representatives; and

The Ziu requests that the Prime Minister thank his Envoys and Ambassadors, including his representative to the League of Secessionist States (L.O.S.S.), for their time, efforts, and service to the Kingdom, and then close all official micronational contacts, including Talossan membership in L.O.S.S.; and

The Ziu stipulates that no part of this Act is intended to limit the free speech and assembly rights of or discriminate against any and all Talossan citizens to privately associate with any individual of their own choosing, including citizens of other micronations.

It is simply a ban on "diplomatic relations".

This is recognized in the above bill which repeals

37RZ2, The What’s The Difference Act, along with 23RZ35, 24RZ11, 25RZ2 and 29RZ10

which are the pertinent legislation to this issue.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Dec 9, 2012 20:26:33 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

As to who stuck around, the Prime Minister of Textor and the Emperor of Aerica were President and Seneschál of the Republic respectively, and they are here with us today.

Oh yeah? Textor I knew, and Ark-Maramia, but I thought the Emperor of Aerica was always Eric Lis.

Another kind of possible compromise would be to move from a general ban on micronational citizenship to a more focused conflict of interest law. A "hard" version would be to prohibit people with certain kinds of micronational involvement from holding certain positions in Talossa. A "soft" version would be to require those who seek or hold certain positions in Talossa to report their micronational involvement, like the laws in other countries that require certain government officials and employees to report their financial interests so that conflicts of interest can be detected.

[Ián B. Anglatzarâ]

Dec 10, 2012 4:13:59 GMT -6 Sir C. M. Siervicül said:

require those who seek or hold certain positions in Talossa to report their micronational involvement

Yes! Absolutely.