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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 5:42:12 GMT -6
I totally agree with this statement. While the RUMP will post the occasional Bill in the Clark for consideration, they are always interested in how others feel about the Bills, and are willing to tweak (adjust) wording of the bill before it is asked to be Clarked. In other words, the way the RUMP wants things to work, is not for people to vote for the party they prefer, but for everyone to be one big happy RUMP party and everyone will have a say regardless. Why do we have elections? Oh Ian, I'm ever so sorry that we're playing nice and in a bipartisan way. Please accept our sincerest apologies that we like to work with everyone to build consensus. We simply cannot get rid of these horrific vices. And I am sorry that the other Opposition parties don't act the way you want them to act and that other parties don't check in with the ZRT before acting. --- I do enjoy that the main criticism of the RUMP here is that they're too nice.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 25, 2012 6:10:43 GMT -6
This is incredible. I only ever make political comments - meanwhile, the pretend "captain" Preston accuses me personally of being an egomaniac, while the Mellow Fellow sarcastically suggests that I'm dumb for not realising that the CSPP doesn't mind that its supporters accept RUMP cabinet positions. Sorry, what? I never suggested you were dumb; I suggested you were politicking, then crying foul when I called you out on it. Stop being so silly - either you're not reading what I'm saying, or you're being intentionally - ahem - disingenuous about what you're reading. Will you Doug Earnest me next and demand the the SKOA strips me of the "Mellow Fellow" title because you've decided I'm a big bad bully? (Trust me, I've felt entirely calm and well-disposed towards you this entire time. Perhaps this is an intonation thing.) Uc, I take your point that there are presumably things which all parliamentary democracies have - that is, parliaments. But the executive comes strictly from Parliament, partly to keep it accountable (cf Alec Douglas-Home for an intriguing instance where a PM was in Parliament but intentionally dropped his peerage and won a parliamentary by-election to be in the House of Commons). It's a peculiar instance of failing to separate powers of course...but if you want that style of picking Ministers, the biggest problem isn't the alleged coalition (as the parties involved haven't agreed to support the government) but the facts several ministers are unelected.
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Jul 25, 2012 6:35:10 GMT -6
This is incredible. I only ever make political comments - meanwhile, the pretend "captain" Preston accuses me personally of being an egomaniac, while the Mellow Fellow sarcastically suggests that I'm dumb for not realising that the CSPP doesn't mind that its supporters accept RUMP cabinet positions. Sorry, what? I never suggested you were dumb; I suggested you were politicking, then crying foul when I called you out on it. Stop being so silly - either you're not reading what I'm saying, or you're being intentionally - ahem - disingenuous about what you're reading. Always nice, huh? Well the fact that every minister must be a common, it's a characteristic of westminster which is not shared by every other parliamentary system. In Italy for example only the PM has to be a member of parliament (lower and upper house), but this doesn't preclude the accountability of the executive. The parliament can have VOC on each minister (because they must have the confidence of the parliament even if, or more importantly because, they are not member of it); and they all are dependant to the PM which is a member of parliament. Fof example in Mario Monti Gov only himself is a Member of Parliament, a Senator. There is no philosophical inerent problem in this. Westminster could be "the mother of parliament", but it's not true that parliamentary democracies have to work or should work exactly like Westiminster does. But this doesn't mean that in parliamentary democracies executive might not be accountable and dependant to the legislative: they have to because the parliament is "supeior".
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 25, 2012 6:54:17 GMT -6
This is incredible. I only ever make political comments - meanwhile, the pretend "captain" Preston accuses me personally of being an egomaniac, while the Mellow Fellow sarcastically suggests that I'm dumb for not realising that the CSPP doesn't mind that its supporters accept RUMP cabinet positions. The title "Captain" is also an Honorific - given because I lead the "Zouaves". Which too is a non-political Office / Group. Are we once again making non-political comments towards another person? Or was that "humor"? Just trying to get the guidelines down on how to play your game. ( oops...almost forgot! " " )
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Jul 25, 2012 10:48:50 GMT -6
In other words, the way the RUMP wants things to work, is not for people to vote for the party they prefer, but for everyone to be one big happy RUMP party and everyone will have a say regardless. Why do we have elections? Oh Ian, I'm ever so sorry that we're playing nice and in a bipartisan way. Please accept our sincerest apologies that we like to work with everyone to build consensus. We simply cannot get rid of these horrific vices. Don't get me wrong. I like the people who run RUMP and understand your motivations, that you want the country to run smoothly with all qualified and willing people at the helm. The only problem is that it invalidates the political side of Talossa. It becomes one big theatre piece. I don't want a shining city on a hill. I don't want utopia. I want a country that works like other countries, but on a smaller scale. With meaningful elections, real competition, real politics, distinct alternatives. I don't want a peculiarist Talossa.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 25, 2012 11:26:21 GMT -6
I just zoomed through the two pages of mostly frankly silly back-and-forth that had happened overnight on this thread, a thread that was meant to introduce the Cabinet, then had turned into a rather cool discussion of "is there a coalition?" but became a "the RUMP has no clue how to be a Talossan party" and "the opposition parties except ZRT don't either" and "no, it's the ZRT that is out-of-tune" and "(insert-name-here) is rude" and "inclusion and consensus-building is good" and "no, it's bad" and "your ego is bigger than mine" and "you're making personal comments" and "no, you are" and "no, I'm not" and "no, you made fun of me" and holy crap; come on, everyone. I mean geez.
It's really hard to know which threads to pay attention to and which are just going to turn into stuff like this anymore. As someone said in the chat room, Immgration has been killed dead lately; I don't know why exactly, but threads like these are suspiciously numerous, and it's hard not to ascribe some kind of link to the dearth of people interested in joining our culture in the last three weeks or more.
Maybe we need a whole separate board ("Politics"? "Politicians"?) for people to end up making sarcastic comments about each other on, and to go off on tangents like this. That way, people who really don't care to have to see personal pissing-matches can avoid that whole board. Even as what would seem to be the head politician (as PM), I think I would avoid it too. At least after the first page of each thread shows it descending into this kind of stuff.
I rush to add that I'm not blaming anyone in particular, and everyone has valid points and has made them. And I sure hope that my saying this doesn't turn into three more Wittpages of back-and-forth about whether Hooligan and his party "gets it" or not, and how if Hooligan wants a nice rainbow-unicorn land, well, that's not going to be Talossa, and if the prospectives can't hack it, then Talossa isn't for them. Because, really, what we're seeing here is NOT politics and it's not what this thread was supposed to be for. When people call each other egomaniacs and make fun of their roles in Talossa, and escalate things, that's stuff no one needs. Maybe getting it off this particular "general purpose" board is a good idea.
I also rush to add I'm not tarring everyone with a brush, nor even anyone. There have been some real good and substantive posts here, and I thank everyone who has posted here, because everyone has indeed made such good and substantive posts.
Talossa has stopped growing. I think that's a bad thing. Is that because Talossa is, to the outsider (and even we insiders) a seemingly mean and bitter and totally unfun place to be right now? It is because politeness seems not to be the order of the day with Talossans (heck, in another thread, a blatant violation of Wittiquette with the use of the F word, a true turnoff to many people who might be looking into Talossa, is right there in plain sight)? Maybe.
Anyway, congratulations again to the Cabinet members.
Hool
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 25, 2012 11:42:31 GMT -6
Always nice, huh? Well, I'm not sure I ever claimed to be nice; but if "niceness" includes not (in good humour) calling out someone who's criticizing me when they're blatantly politicking, then no, I'm not nice.
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Jul 25, 2012 11:52:33 GMT -6
I think separating the Ziu completely from the other boards, even not including it in the Last 59 Posts feed, is a great idea. I think we do need to hash things like these out (well, excluding the snideness and personal attacks), but I also totally understand how reading it can be off-putting.
OK, this particular thread is not on one of the Ziu boards, but the majority of them are.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 25, 2012 12:00:16 GMT -6
I don't want a shining city on a hill. I don't want utopia. I want a country that works like other countries, but on a smaller scale. With meaningful elections, real competition, real politics, distinct alternatives. I don't want a peculiarist Talossa. How did peculiarism slip into your picture again? I for one am for a "Real Cosâ", the secret ballot and what not. More or less for a Talossa that resembles the Republic of Talossa more than it does now. And I am a Peculiarist....
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Post by Suischadna Margreta Blasiüs on Jul 25, 2012 12:06:32 GMT -6
I definitely do not think that the Ziu should be separated from the other boards. Transparency in government is an important thing to maintain. Especially since folks interested in joining Talossa are generally government/politics geeks to begin with; they are likely to want to be involved in gov't, or at least to see the inner workings of Talossa's. Can we perhaps just impress upon the members of the Ziu (and re-commit ourselves) to refrain from personal attacks, epithets, and vulgar language?
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Jul 25, 2012 13:29:53 GMT -6
I don't want a shining city on a hill. I don't want utopia. I want a country that works like other countries, but on a smaller scale. With meaningful elections, real competition, real politics, distinct alternatives. I don't want a peculiarist Talossa. How did peculiarism slip into your picture again? I for one am for a "Real Cosâ", the secret ballot and what not. More or less for a Talossa that resembles the Republic of Talossa more than it does now. And I am a Peculiarist.... Small p peculiarist, as in seeking unique solutions that do not resemble what real countries do.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 25, 2012 14:02:45 GMT -6
Always nice, huh? Well, I'm not sure I ever claimed to be nice; but if "niceness" includes not (in good humour) calling out someone who's criticizing me when they're blatantly politicking, then no, I'm not nice. You've been accusing Üc Tärfâ of racism in other threads. How is that "nice"? Both yourself and s:reu Preston's chief reaction to having an actual Opposition party in Talossa has been heavy-handed sarcasm and put-downs; it seems that you don't accept the legitimacy anyone who won't play "nice" with the ruling consensus. Compare and contrast with Hool or Alex Davis, who have accepted ZRT politicking as not only legitimate, but welcome. Ián A. is right that the RUMP's style of politics - no matter its intent - has in effect closed down the political side of the Kingdom of Talossa by leaving no room for sturdy opposition. We Defencists aim to change that.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 25, 2012 14:34:39 GMT -6
You've been accusing Üc Tärfâ of racism in other threads. How is that "nice"? Both yourself and s:reu Preston's chief reaction to having an actual Opposition party in Talossa has been heavy-handed sarcasm and put-downs; it seems that you don't accept the legitimacy anyone who won't play "nice" with the ruling consensus. This is just such a silly statement, on several levels. First, Uc said a foolish thing where the dismissal of an issue was predicated on the two adjective "idiotic" and "American"; the two were intrinsically linked. Of course it was a racially-tinged statement, intentional or not; indeed, it's the kind of casually anti-American statement thrown around in the UK and other parts of Europe (remember, I live in a country which hated being Dubya's lapdog). Second, I was happy to discard the "nice" moniker, one I never think I adopted. Third, no, as is clear from every instance of "heavy-handed sarcasm and put-downs" from me in this thread, the problem is not about any ruling consensus; the issue is you charging the CSPP with abandoning opposition due to one of its member accepting, off his own back, a non-political role. When I mocked this patently absurd idea, you acted hurt on the basis that you were only after the RUMP! STOP IGNORING THE FACTS. That's what happened; that's the truth. Don't try to wiggle out from the fact you acted hurt because I teased you for saying an obviously untrue thing. But don't worry. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. *hugs Miestra* It's not your fault. I still love you!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 25, 2012 15:30:05 GMT -6
If the leader of the CSPP is mortally offended to the point where he feels he has to get out the 22-calibre sarcasm gun when the RUMP's tactics are criticised, then the point that the CSPP is not in fact an opposition party seems proved.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 25, 2012 15:39:32 GMT -6
If the leader of the CSPP is mortally offended to the point where he feels he has to get out the 22-calibre sarcasm gun when the RUMP's tactics are criticised, then the point that the CSPP is not in fact an opposition party seems proved. Well, I wasn't mortally offended, but hey, you know, we'll go with that. My "mortal offence" was at the accusation made at the CSPP; that's surely clear to you? I mean, as I made clear, I don't think you're dumb, I think you're being disingenuous. You're not being honest. You're actively ignoring what I'm saying so as to win the point. You're not really engaging in conversation or debate, but rather theatre, with the concomitant acting and invention involved. (Your correct response to my post, by the way, was: "Don't do this to me, man. Not you!")
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