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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Jul 24, 2012 14:48:34 GMT -6
Should I, as leader of the RUMP and organiser of the government, simply have thumbed my nose at the 46% of Talossan voters that voted for parties other than the RUMP and not offered them any voice in the government, and made a speech saying "we, the government, will serve the voters of RUMP and only RUMP"? I would expect he winners of the election to form a government consisting of those who ran in the election on the same platform, and not hand out key jobs to people whose goals and ideology is contrary to what the winners want to do with the country, yes. I fail to see how that could be good for Talossa. It would make it clear who is governing the country and whose ideology shapes the country during the months until the next election, and give the opposition parties something to contrast with, thus making the next election meaningful. Even in the U.S. (where there are really only two parties of consequence), members of the opposition party are appointed to executive posts by the President all the time. In his cabinet? Really? Forming a talented Cabinet is not in any way meant to homogenize the nation or anything. It's meant to serve Talossa best, which is what any government is elected to do. But it also muddles the borders between the parties and the political alternatives, making the whole party system rather pointless. In makes it more like a club where the only thing that is elected is the chairman, and the chairman is non-political and is elected on the grounds of whether people trust her or not, and who does not have an ideology but only wants to form an efficient board to guide the club.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 14:54:44 GMT -6
I don't believe that any person that isn't a member of the RUMP party is an "opposition" member. (Except Miestrâ Schivâ. She will oppose anything and everything that the RUMP does, just because it's all about her). Because Carlüs, Sariah, Eoin, Mximo, and the 23 other people who voted ZRT precisely as an alternative to permanent RUMP government are chopped liver. ;D Give up the personal attacks, Mick - we all know that I'm an unpleasant person, so if we agree on that, let's talk politics.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 14:56:34 GMT -6
But it also muddles the borders between the parties and the political alternatives, making the whole party system rather pointless. In makes it more like a club where he only thing that is elected is the chairman, and the chairman is non-political and is elected on the grounds of whether people trust her or not, and who does not have an ideology but only wants to form an efficient board to guide the club. Which is ideal if you're an ideology-free political party whose only concern is winning elections forever for no better reward than bragging rights and the possibility of patronage.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 24, 2012 14:57:39 GMT -6
Yes until last year ( April 2011), the Secretary of Defense was Robert Gates, who had been appointed to the Cabinet post by then President Bush on November 8, 2006. Other Republicans currently in the Cabinet: Ray LaHood, Sec. of Transportation John McHugh, Sec. of the Army Chuck Hagel, Co-Chair of Intelligence Board
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 15:01:44 GMT -6
The time for politics is over ... I've often thought that the RUMP are dominated by US Americans who don't actually understand how a parliamentary democratic system works, and now I have proof. I suggest that the Seneschál watches footage of Prime Minister's Question Time in the parliaments of the UK, Canada or Australia to see what he is in for on the floor of the Ziu. Watch for the nomination of a ZRT "shadow Cabinet" in the next little while.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 24, 2012 15:02:28 GMT -6
First off, as I told Ián in a PM just now, this is a really cool discussion and I'm glad we're having it. I would expect he winners of the election to form a government consisting of those who ran in the election on the same platform, and not hand out key jobs to people whose goals and ideology is contrary to what the winners want to do with the country, yes. It would make it clear who is governing the country and whose ideology shapes the country during the months until the next election, and give the opposition parties something to contrast with, thus making the next election meaningful. I guess to this point, I would say that if any member of the Cabinet has any issue with any of the eight planks of the RUMP platform, then their refusal to assist in accomplishing the goals of those eight planks will be understood. I would even welcome open disagreement, but would be happy to know that in the performance of their other duties to the ministry, they are active and contributing. Yep. President Obama's Secretary of Transportation, Ray LaHood, is a Republican. Also, until leaving office in 2011, Obama's Secretary of Defense (Robert Gates) was a Republican. In the George W. Bush administration, the Secretary of Transportation (Norman Mineta) was a Democrat. Bill Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen was a Republican. Wikipedia has a list of some of the more prominent U.S. government positions filled by opposition members. And America has millions of citizens. Talossa only has 150 adults, of whom only about three or four dozen or so are truly active enough here and in other Talossan channels to make good Cabinet members. To expect to fill a Cabinet of ten from persons without considering the talents of opposition members would be impossible. But it also muddles the borders between the parties and the political alternatives, making the whole party system rather pointless. In makes it more like a club where he only thing that is elected is the chairman, and the chairman is non-political and is elected on the grounds of whether people trust her or not, and who does not have an ideology but only wants to form an efficient board to guide the club. Well, I don't mean to do any of that; I'm just trying to serve Talossa. Hool
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2012 15:09:33 GMT -6
Yes until last year ( April 2011), the Secretary of Defense was Robert Gates, who had been appointed to the Cabinet post by then President Bush on November 8, 2006. Other Republicans currently in the Cabinet: Ray LaHood, Sec. of Transportation John McHugh, Sec. of the Army Chuck Hagel, Co-Chair of Intelligence Board William Cohen was a republican and served as Secretary of Defense under Clinton.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 24, 2012 15:11:34 GMT -6
... I've often thought that the RUMP are dominated by US Americans who don't actually understand how a parliamentary democratic system works, and now I have proof. We all are who we are. Ben is a US American, so in some sense, the parliamentary democracy he and his friends created for us is a relic of their own understandings (and has nothing to do with the RUMP). On a similar (though perhaps slightly unrelated) topic, I often find that US Americans (and, indeed, a great many others, even those who live in monarchies and their dependencies) do not understand constitutional monarchy (if not even our particular Ben-the-US-American-and-we-worldwiders-who-have-followed-him brand of it). US Americans, having been raised in a Republic, do not recognise the important distinction between functions of the state and functions of the government, since America vests them both in a single person. (Not that my own understanding is perfect; again, we're all who we are is all.) Everyone is a product of their environment, and I am simply very happy that all of us from these many environments are sharing and building the Talossan environment. I have indeed watched such things and I look forward to seeing them happen in Talossa! Totally! I truly look forward to it! Exciting times for Talossa! Hool
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Post by Eldsfäts Blasiüs on Jul 24, 2012 15:15:36 GMT -6
This has been an enlightening discussion. Lots of light, relatively little heat. Kudos and thanks to all.
1) I believe that I can do some good for Talossa in this Cabinet post, so while that's true, I'll do what I can and do not feel that I've somehow thrown CeR's support unequivocably to RUMP
2) This is no way binds me to support the RUMP or their initiatives.
Conversely, I don't feel a need to distance myself from the RUMP like an insecure teenager; if we agree, we'll vote together. If not, we won't (cf. the secret ballot and, much more important, the Pengopats proposal, on which I've backed my King's passionate desire to veto legislature)
3) If you want to feel otherwise, you're free to do so. And I'm receptive to being shown that I'm wrong (which happens a lot).
Just don't expect me to feel obligated to follow your perspective on what constitutes "correct" parliamentary behavior just 'cause you say so.
That said, I'm a little disappointed that ZRT couldn't see clear to take a Cabinet post or two. They oppose the RUMP, I get it, we ALL get it, but cannot we agree that certain elements are common to all parties of good will whilst agreeing that we'll disagree on many other matters? Would a ZRT member as Ministry of Culture impede ZRT's Republican goals? Will a CSPP head of Defence lack the intestinal fortitude to thwart Canadian zombies? Would a Cabinet post to support Stuff fail to encourage.... Stuff?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2012 15:15:42 GMT -6
The time for politics is over ... I've often thought that the RUMP are dominated by US Americans who don't actually understand how a parliamentary democratic system works, and now I have proof. I suggest that the Seneschál watches footage of Prime Minister's Question Time in the parliaments of the UK, Canada or Australia to see what he is in for on the floor of the Ziu. Watch for the nomination of a ZRT "shadow Cabinet" in the next little while. You mean like the inability for some of our non American parliamentary living citizens to fail to grasp the simple concept that if a cabinet minister votes down a VOC they should resign? Yup. My understanding of Parliamentary politics is greatly skewed.
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Post by Béneditsch Ardpresteir, O.SPM. on Jul 24, 2012 15:26:24 GMT -6
I have been living in the largest democracy for over 31 years now... and my earliest remembrances of Political Situation was the day I was going for my Nursery interview in 1984 ( I was nearly 4 years then) and heard that someone was killed and we were not going anywhere. Don't know when I co-related this vivid memory with the then Prime Minister, Ms. Indira Gandhi.
It was probably she who first sowed the seeds of political coalition in India by becoming a tyrant of sorts and forcing the opposition to form a Coalition to oppose and oust her (her comeback to power is another story).
Coalition can be pre/post election alliance. In case of prepoll-alliance, numbers do not determine requirement of such alliance. At best the seats of the coalition partners determine the ministries they might be getting. In case of postpoll-alliance, coalition partners have more role as they can to an extent get plum position ministries. Even with a few or limited seats (which may be vital for formation of a government) they can ask for greater share in the government.
Then there are outside supporters, who generally vote PER in VOCs, but on any other bill, its a issue based support.
In India, bills are classified into 'Money Bills' and 'Non Money Bill'. 'Money Bills' are prerogative of the government and has a link with the revenue/finance. If any such bill fails it amounts to a negative VOC and the government falls. A VOC is only sought if there is a coalition governement, or a minority government with outside support. On the other hand a VO-N-C can be sought by the opposition at any time but not within 6 months of last such vote in the legislature.
A minister if not a member of the house, has to get himself elected/ nominated to either of the house within 6 months. However, this rule does seem to be applicable to Talossa.
Speaking about Talossan activity : Votes by the members of the Cabinet should be in consonance with the Government. But since its the Cosa which votes and not the Ministers themselves (as a few Ministers aren't voters being non members), thus Cosa voting should not be mixed up with the peculiar situation that arises in the Talossan Political Scenario.
It has been rightly pointed out that at least members of the Cabinet are under a moral obligation to vote PER on VOC as they are to an extant voting for their own calibre and credibility. In such a case it would be apt to ask the cabinet minister voting NON to recuse himself as he either does not have confidence in himself or his mates in the ministry. A 'political life' calls for service above self, thus personal enemity or difference with other ministers should not be a reason for a NON. If a minister has an actual NoConfi in the government, it is proper that he tender his resignation, and then vote. One cant have the cake and eat it too.
This is my personal opinion, and I do not speak as an AG at this juncture.
Ben Ard
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 15:34:08 GMT -6
Eidsfäts, can you not see the simple point that a healthy parliamentary system needs an opposition in the Cosâ, not bound to the Government in any way, to keep the Government honest and to provide an alternative? Further, why should anyone vote ZRT in the election if we're going to go into a RUMP government anyway?
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Post by Eldsfäts Blasiüs on Jul 24, 2012 15:38:59 GMT -6
Eidsfäts, can you not see the simple point that a healthy parliamentary system needs an opposition in the Cosâ, not bound to the Government in any way, to keep the Government honest and to provide an alternative? Further, why should anyone vote ZRT in the election if we're going to go into a RUMP government anyway? I can see that from your perspective I'm being either obstinate or thick, but I honestly do not see the value in opposing for the sake of opposition. I personally think that you would have been an excellent Cabinet participant for at least one of the positions. And at least in the States, one can be a strong opposition party participant whilst under the auspices of a different party regime, since Cabinet positions are supposed to be for the good of all people, regardless of party. Why is this view so antithetical to your own? Put another way: would you automatically exclude a most qualified member of RUMP to a Cabinet post (say, Culture) if ZRT were to obtain power and that person was best able to serve Talossa?
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 24, 2012 15:41:37 GMT -6
Just to reïterate what I've said to many people in private, I am psyched about the stridency of the ZRT in opposition. I note that they are true to their principles of opposition, even to the point of opposing the proposal of the "Breach" act (which was the toss-off "let's have eight, like the number of provinces" plank in the RUMP platform) as being needlessly silly, an insult to the dignity of the Cosa, and stuff like that. Opposing (for any reason) whenever there is something to oppose hasn't happened enough in Talossa. It lets people discuss why they favour things and why they don't.
I think the ZRT is good for Talossa, and would even say good for the RUMP. While I agree with S:r Blasiüs (and have so said) that it is unfortunate that Cabinet ministries will not see the talents of ZRT members during the upcoming Cosa, I am psyched about seeing their abilities in the Shadow Government Miestrâ has mentioned.
What we're seeing in Talossa is some pretty cool stuff, if you ask me.
Hool
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 15:43:31 GMT -6
Why would I appoint a RUMP member to a cabinet position when the ZRT and the RUMP are ideological opposites? I would appoint cabinet members who supported the Government line. Of course if someone quit the RUMP and endorsed ZRT politics then they would be welcome. Let us turn that around and ask whether a CeR led government would appoint an atheist supporter of same-sex marriage and abortion to the position of Family Affairs.
Eidsfäts, as Ián A. says, you are retailing a very "non-political" view of politics - which doesn't surprise me given your quasi-Carlist viewpoint, and I hope you won't think it's a personal attack if I suggest that the non-party governmental system of Spain in the 1960s is probably your idea of a good system. Not mine. I believe that politics is about competing ideologies, and there is no point in a party system or elections if it doesn't matter who wins.
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