Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Jul 25, 2012 23:40:20 GMT -6
You've been accusing Üc Tärfâ of racism in other threads. How is that "nice"? Both yourself and s:reu Preston's chief reaction to having an actual Opposition party in Talossa has been heavy-handed sarcasm and put-downs; it seems that you don't accept the legitimacy anyone who won't play "nice" with the ruling consensus. This is just such a silly statement, on several levels. First, Uc said a foolish thing where the dismissal of an issue was predicated on the two adjective "idiotic" and "American"; the two were intrinsically linked. Of course it was a racially-tinged statement, intentional or not; indeed, it's the kind of casually anti-American statement thrown around in the UK and other parts of Europe (remember, I live in a country which hated being Dubya's lapdog). I've ignored the fact so far because It's frankly ridiculous, but I think I have the right to a brief statement now. I don't know, but if I say that an issue is "typical american" and that I think this issue to be "idiotic" it doesn't mean that "it's idiotic becaues is american" or "it's idiotic, so it must be american"; but rather that from my point of view that was an idiotic - period- and a typical american issue. Like the fear that multiple peferences system (like stv and irv) are systems where it is possible and easy to control how voters voted it's an italian idiotic issue. Does this in your opinion make me racist towards italians? I won't talk about this anymore... You're not being honest. You're actively ignoring what I'm saying so as to win the point. You're not really engaging in conversation or debate, but rather theatre, with the concomitant acting and invention involved. As I've found myself in the need to explain the same concept again and again, I colud say, you said, that many people aren't really engaging in conversations. A side note Owen, sometimes you have a poor-guy-he-doesn't-understand-the-basic-notions-of-this-topic-I-have-to-explain-and-fill-his-lack-of-knowledge attitude with people who don't share your views or don't see things as you do that can be annoying. Really. And I'm not saying this in a polemical way believe me...
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 26, 2012 3:48:29 GMT -6
I want a country that works like other countries, but on a smaller scale. I agree! However, the RUMP practice of appointing non-RUMP cabinet members is no deviation from that principle. In other countries, it may be uncommon for majority parties to appoint cabinet members from other parties with which they are not in coalition, but it does happen. Some Australian states (South Australia, West Australia, and Tasmania) currently (I believe) have cabinet ministers from non-coalition minority parties. In Tasmania, the Green party's page on the state web site even lists their shadow cabinet with some members having both actual and shadow portfolios. The Fiji constitution (until it was suspended a few years ago) required proportional representation not just in the legislature but in the cabinet as well, with ministry portfolios to be offered to each party with at least 10% representation in the lower house. And in South Africa, the ANC certainly has no need of coalition members to support it in VOCs (having won 60-70% of the lower house in the past 3 elections), but still has a tradition of offering a few cabinet positions to minority parties. This tradition started with the national unity government agreement that existed for the first post-apartheid election, but the ANC continued the practice even after the agreement had expired and it won outright majorities in each election since then. Even in the UK, in 2007 Gordon Brown allegedly offered cabinet seats to individual Liberal Democrats without seeking coalition with the Lib Dems, but his offers were declined. The practice does/did encounter criticism in each of these other cases, and you make fair points about why it may be undesirable, but let's all be clear that there's nothing "peculiar" (in the Talossan sense) about it. It's something Real Countries Do.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 26, 2012 3:56:02 GMT -6
It is because politeness seems not to be the order of the day with Talossans I'm not sure politeness is the key thing that has traditionally attracted Talossans to Talossa. But I agree with you that the level of namecalling and personal attacks is getting a little out of hand, regardless of whether it is having an impact on immigration.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jul 26, 2012 5:45:18 GMT -6
I didn't become a Talossan for all this bickering, I cam to Talossa because of my interest in politics. I can tell you now how saddened I am that the lines of partisan politics have been blurred to such an extent that it's difficult to see where the distinction between apolitical and political offices lies.
I'd like us to get back on track to the earlier discussion without regressing to a thread of name-calling, bickering, whining and arrogant flippancy that seems to have dominated Talossa recently. I like debate; I find it thrilling to scrutinise the actions of a government - a role which I take seriously as a member of His Majesty's Opposition and not as one knight of the realm described as opposing for the sake of opposing. Neither I nor any other Goat (ZRTer) took a Cabinet post because we saw the need for an active and dedicated opposition that could scrutinise EVERY aspect of the government. That is to say EVERY ministry. I'm sure you can see how that would become difficult for us if we had to start scrutinising our colleagues (colleagues who, as a part of the government, I would expect to tow the governmental line).
The debate originally seems to have developed from a difference of opinion as to what kind of governmental system Talossa has and understanding of a parliamentary system. The way I see it, is that as a parliamentary system in which the Seneschal is appointed from the largest party in the Cosa is used in Talossa, that there is a strong link between the legislative and the executive in this, our beloved nationette.
Furthermore, I believe I agree in full with what S:reu Anglatzara was saying in this thread. Elections ARE becoming meaningless in Talossa. My vote for a party does in part rely on the perceived competence of that party (In macronational terms, this is why I haven't supported the Labour party before, but that's a point on another tangent). If the RUMP insists on using members of other parties to fill the governmental offices, then their competence can never truly be questioned because it isn't the party's members that are being scrutinised in their ministerial roles.
And, to conclude, I'll finish on a slightly tongue in cheek note: If the RUMP believes that so many members of the opposition are sufficiently talented that they should be appointed instead of a member of the RUMP, why should any voter cast their ballot of the RUMP in the first place? If so many of the RUMP's ministers are from outside of the party, it seems unfair that the inactive wing of the electorate are being told that it is a RUMP government in power at this time. That is to say that the RUMP will win any "competence points" that their extra-RUMP governmental colleagues will earn - thus helping them in the next general election.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 26, 2012 6:24:49 GMT -6
As I've found myself in the need to explain the same concept again and again, I colud say, you said, that many people aren't really engaging in conversations. A side note Owen, sometimes you have a poor-guy-he-doesn't-understand-the-basic-notions-of-this-topic-I-have-to-explain-and-fill-his-lack-of-knowledge attitude with people who don't share your views or don't see things as you do that can be annoying. Really. And I'm not saying this in a polemical way believe me... Sure, there's been a large-scale lack of conversation. You're allowed to say that too! Your suggestion that it's more widespread than D:na Schiva doesn't make my critique less plausible; it makes it more plausible. Miestra obviously was ignoring what was being said so as to score points (because we know she's not retarded). I'm not angry about it - bemused, perhaps. re: my tone - I'm sorry if it comes across like that to you!
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Jul 26, 2012 6:48:57 GMT -6
And, to conclude, I'll finish on a slightly tongue in cheek note: If the RUMP believes that so many members of the opposition are sufficiently talented that they should be appointed instead of a member of the RUMP, why should any voter cast their ballot of the RUMP in the first place? If so many of the RUMP's ministers are from outside of the party, it seems unfair that the inactive wing of the electorate are being told that it is a RUMP government in power at this time. That is to say that the RUMP will win any "competence points" that their extra-RUMP governmental colleagues will earn - thus helping them in the next general election. Here comes the RUMP HQ!
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 26, 2012 6:52:58 GMT -6
I love it! Fantastic analogy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 7:34:21 GMT -6
Actually, we're more akin to the Canadian borg. Except with ours, pressing 2 will get you Talossan.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 26, 2012 10:14:56 GMT -6
If the RUMP believes that so many members of the opposition are sufficiently talented that they should be appointed instead of a member of the RUMP, why should any voter cast their ballot of the RUMP in the first place? Again, we need a total of ten active citizens to staff the Cabinet. How many do we have, in the whole country? I'm going to say forty, and I think that may even be a bit high. Those forty voted for five different parties, and PRESENT. Six of them are judges or justices. One of them is the King. Another couple are too busy in the Royal House (like Iustì) to be a dedicated Cabinet member. Others have personal lives that need more attendance than Talossa could expect from them. I don't want to say it's slim pickins, but really, it's not like ANY party (I don't think, and I run the biggest one of the bunch right now) could expect to fill all ten cabinet posts with a warm enthusiatic body from among its own active members. In other words, I need 25% of the active citizens to staff a Cabinet if I want to have one person head each ministry. I could have chosen to do like Litz did, and assign multiple portfolios to a single person, but I really am hoping that all eight Cabinet Ministries will get enough attention from a dedicated minister to get some projects done. Could I have found nine RUMPers? Maybe. But it would have been a case of, "well, I know you have absolutely no interest in being Finance Minister, but, well, you're the only active RUMPer left, so, please take the job. Although we all know Istefan Perþonest has great plans for coinage and currency and postage, he voted CSPP, so I guess we'll just give it to you, though you know nothing of finance and won't lift a finger. So, can you just sit in the job, even though I know you won't do anything, because it needs to be a RUMP butt there or we and the other parties will get criticised? (And we'll choose to instead be criticised for NOT appointing S:r Perþonest, the best man for the job.)" Without meaning to offend S:r Perþonest or any of the other two non-RUMP Cabinet members, I suppose if a RUMPer had been available, interested, active enough, and had enthusiasm and plans the way I found you three to be, I would have considered them in competition for the job you now hold. In a country with only forty active citizens, though, well, yeah. And to any members of the RUMP or voters who voted RUMP who might feel slighted or surprised that the composition of the Cabinet is not RUMP from wall to wall, well, I won't apologise (and I'd be surprised; none have indicated any displeasure with the appointments, publicly or privately); this is the way we have always done things — find the best person for the job in our little community. Hool
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 26, 2012 10:54:26 GMT -6
In fact even in the heyday of the Republic it happened at least once, that a government lead by D:na Schivâ employed no-one less than the so called "opposition leader" as their Foreign Minister. And no-one called that a coalition, if my memory serves.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 26, 2012 13:05:52 GMT -6
What you don't understand, Deet, is that when the RUMP does it, it's sinister. They all have small moustaches they swirl malevolently. FACT.
See, my problem with the RUMP - the reason I'm not a RUMPer - is that they don't support the PP's central policies particularly strongly; a couple members are sympathetic, many are very against. The reason I want the PP to beat the RUMP and have a majority government is because then we can enact the policies we believe in. If we can reclaim the narrative a bit, and guide it off this angry adversarial into an atmosphere of policy discussion and critique - well, I think that would benefit every party, especially the CSPP and ZRT. Maybe it won't benefit the RUMP; if they really are a pot pie blob, tough policy conversations will cause them to fall apart.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jul 26, 2012 13:36:19 GMT -6
What you don't understand, Deet, is that when the RUMP does it, it's sinister. They all have small moustaches they swirl malevolently. FACT. To the Kingdom and its inner tiff I'm a n00b. I think they got it all wrong when it comes to monarchism, but then, by now, only the ZRT is not travelling on that track. It's fine if there's an opposition that can reclaim the narrative of our nationette, but unfortunately I've seen how an attempt like this almost grounded the Republic. What the RUMPers are doing quite well (at least from the perspective of this n00b here) is keeping the nationette alive and rolling. The opposition parties (which will have to win the election) will have to prove that they got means for keeping the nationette rolling, unlike the infamous M.R.P. of Republican glory, who fell flat on their faces once they won an election. In this, it's a good thing to be invited to sit in a RUMPer government, to prove one's capability and expertise, isn't it?
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 26, 2012 14:25:13 GMT -6
Hey, I agree that the RUMP has done a good job of keeping things ticking. As I explained elsewhere, I think a big challenge to the opposition is to show the character and competence of the RUMP, but with better policies!
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Jul 26, 2012 20:16:28 GMT -6
The Minister of Finance is Minister of Finance mostly because he wants to get Talossan coins made, after fourteen years of his ambitions being frustrated.
(Let's see, other unfinished business from the bills I submitted to the first Clark I was an MC . . . that's done, that's done, that's actually probably a bad idea, and . . . ah, reforming nomenclature to reflect that hydrologically Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are one lake. So, something to do after coins get made before I have to think of new things.)
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 27, 2012 4:05:50 GMT -6
and . . . ah, reforming nomenclature to reflect that hydrologically Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are one lake. That makes the Talossan Sea more than twice as large (by surface area) as most had assumed. Excellent point!
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