Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Jul 24, 2012 15:54:53 GMT -6
And at least in the States, one can be a strong opposition party participant whilst under the auspices of a different party regime, since Cabinet positions are supposed to be for the good of all people, regardless of party. Why is this view so antithetical to your own? Because this is how parliamentary democracies work. It's a necessary consequence of the existance of a Parliament rather than a Congress.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 16:18:32 GMT -6
The thing is that in the United States, a good proportion of the time the ruling party is in the minority in one or both Houses of the legislature (as they are at the moment) - as opposed to a parliamentary democracy where they have a majority in at least the lower house, by definition. In that situation it's only sensible to build a cabinet which doesn't ideologically alienate the other party too much. Also in the US, party boundaries are much looser. Right-wing Democrats are pretty much the same kind of people as liberal Republicans, if there are any of the latter left.
On the subject, the ZRT are not like the US Republicans who would oppose Barry O if he said the sky was blue. Note that we are cautiously in favour of the RUMP's (half-baked) secret ballot bill, we're not going to vote it down just to be annoying.
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Post by Gjermund Higraff on Jul 24, 2012 16:36:13 GMT -6
I'm rarely considered a political person, except when voting in an election that is...But I must admit to having held the position of Immigration Minister in a PC government (I can't remember there ever being anything else prior to the revolution), the reason being that the job was basically paperwork, actually a secretary job, rather than an actual member of a government. Perhaps that should be reflected in the actual title, or is it important that the role is 'Minister'?
I would have forgotten that I actually held the job for a year or two, unless it had included the rejection of Miestrâ for citizenship, which changed a lot of stuff..In any case, even with the title, I can't remember the role ever being considered as something that was connected to the current governing party (not that it mattered in those days, it was PC), the appointment was not connected to an election as far as I remember, and not reconsidered during the following election either.
Is that what we're talking about here? Positions which in essence aren't in fact political, but rather functions that have titles that seem rather more important than the actual role (some of them, not all of course)?
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 24, 2012 16:44:13 GMT -6
If we are going to do everything that a parliamentary democracy does in 'real life countries' then I assume the ZRT would be okay with the King appointing folks to the upper house and holding the seats for life (a la House of Lords)?; or indeed (and the CeR will love it) bishops sitting in the upper house because, well, they are bishops?; what about select committees? joint committees? general and grand ones even? I suppose the non MC cabinet members should be granted peerages just now, no? Are we doing things all American and wrong again here? I suppose the distinction between a Bill and an Act should also be brought up, does the ZRT hate the way we debate and pass legislation in Talossa also? What about parliamentary sovereignty? Oh, we also shouldn't be holding monthly VOCs, they should only happen when called for ... and a whole other bunch of stuff...
Look, just because parliaments do it one way where you or I come from does not dictate how Talossa should be doing it. I enjoy Talossa because it is quite far removed from what I see on Prime Ministers Question Time...which resembles a bunch of overgrown rich schoolkids who don't know how to get along. Bring that to Talossa? No, thanks.
Although, it seems to be getting that way a little.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 24, 2012 16:50:08 GMT -6
A big AMEN to Eddie.
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Post by Gjermund Higraff on Jul 24, 2012 16:59:12 GMT -6
If we are going to do everything that a parliamentary democracy does in 'real life countries' then I assume the ZRT would be okay with the King appointing folks to the upper house and holding the seats for life (a la House of Lords)? There are parliaments elsewhere that don't work in that particular manner...I almost said "in that peculiar manner" but that would be wrong
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 17:20:36 GMT -6
I have no idea why the CSPP gets all nasty and sarcastic when I start criticising the RUMP. I really think it's not only the RUMP who doesn't get what the job of an opposition is in a parliamentary democracy.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 24, 2012 17:29:47 GMT -6
...sorry, wasn't your thrust that the CSPP and CeR couldn't be in the Opposition because they were in a coaliton? So either a) we're defending ourselves from that charge or b) we're part of a ruling coalition and are defending that defending coalition. Please pick, then stop being silly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2012 17:32:06 GMT -6
If we are going to do everything that a parliamentary democracy does in 'real life countries' then I assume the ZRT would be okay with the King appointing folks to the upper house and holding the seats for life (a la House of Lords)?; or indeed (and the CeR will love it) bishops sitting in the upper house because, well, they are bishops?; what about select committees? joint committees? general and grand ones even? I suppose the non MC cabinet members should be granted peerages just now, no? Are we doing things all American and wrong again here? I suppose the distinction between a Bill and an Act should also be brought up, does the ZRT hate the way we debate and pass legislation in Talossa also? What about parliamentary sovereignty? Oh, we also shouldn't be holding monthly VOCs, they should only happen when called for ... and a whole other bunch of stuff... Look, just because parliaments do it one way where you or I come from does not dictate how Talossa should be doing it. I enjoy Talossa because it is quite far removed from what I see on Prime Ministers Question Time...which resembles a bunch of overgrown rich schoolkids who don't know how to get along. Bring that to Talossa? No, thanks. Although, it seems to be getting that way a little. Um... that is just what YOUR parliamentary democracies does. There are plenty of other parliamentary democracies that don't have this. Iceland and Germany just to name two off the top of my head.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 24, 2012 17:36:22 GMT -6
The point Eddie makes isn't made redundant by what you say; indeed, I'd say it's rather strengthened. Whose parliamentary democracy are we talking about here? Who makes the rules and determinations as to what one is and why do they make those decisions?
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jul 24, 2012 17:47:13 GMT -6
If we are going to do everything that a parliamentary democracy does in 'real life countries' then I assume the ZRT would be okay with the King appointing folks to the upper house and holding the seats for life (a la House of Lords)?; or indeed (and the CeR will love it) bishops sitting in the upper house because, well, they are bishops?; what about select committees? joint committees? general and grand ones even? I suppose the non MC cabinet members should be granted peerages just now, no? Are we doing things all American and wrong again here? I suppose the distinction between a Bill and an Act should also be brought up, does the ZRT hate the way we debate and pass legislation in Talossa also? What about parliamentary sovereignty? Oh, we also shouldn't be holding monthly VOCs, they should only happen when called for ... and a whole other bunch of stuff... Look, just because parliaments do it one way where you or I come from does not dictate how Talossa should be doing it. I enjoy Talossa because it is quite far removed from what I see on Prime Ministers Question Time...which resembles a bunch of overgrown rich schoolkids who don't know how to get along. Bring that to Talossa? No, thanks. Although, it seems to be getting that way a little. Um... that is just what YOUR parliamentary democracies does. There are plenty of other parliamentary democracies that don't have this. Iceland and Germany just to name two off the top of my head. I can add a third.... Talossa! We do things differently, a little bit like other nations, and a little bit not.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 24, 2012 17:51:17 GMT -6
Also, sack MinHome and MinFin as they're not elected. UNDEMOCRACY ARE BAD!
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 19:28:51 GMT -6
I like the way the so-called "Mellow Fellow" thinks the best thing to do with ideas he doesn't approve of is sarcastic ridicule. Very mellow.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 24, 2012 19:49:05 GMT -6
I like the way the so-called "Mellow Fellow" thinks the best thing to do with ideas he doesn't approve of is sarcastic ridicule. Very mellow. Oh! That wasn't a PERSONAL attack, was it?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 24, 2012 19:55:41 GMT -6
No, it wasn't. I didn't describe unpleasant personal motives to him, I just disapproved of his behaviour.
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