Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001 
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 2, 2015 9:57:23 GMT -6
Even if a majority of members do not like the idea of having a royal jester, I encourage people to vote per on this bill, because if it fails, S:da Shapera will have to wait even longer to become a citizen. She would make a great citizen (even if she were not an official jester), and we risk losing her if we wait around too long. The royal jester provision can be struck later if necessary.
Further, I do not really understand the arguments against having a fool. The reason Talossa exists is to entertain ourselves, and what better way to do that than to have a role whose entire job is entertainment? Some people might think it infantile, but in the midst of bitter governmental debate, a few jokes would be welcome. And if having a jester is childish (despite being a legitimate role in other Kingdoms), wouldn't that put positions like the National Gamemaster in the same category?
I did not propose the position for the sake of S:da Shapera, for the reasons I expressed above. But if I had, so what? Talossa is plagued by apathetic new citizens. If we give new citizens something to do, a role to fill, would that not make them stay around? I am not advocating for the creation of a new position every time a new citizens comes, but we have here someone who is qualified for a position that would be worthwhile even if someone else filled it.
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Aug 2, 2015 11:11:40 GMT -6
Even if a majority of members do not like the idea of having a royal jester, I encourage people to vote per on this bill, because if it fails, S:da Shapera will have to wait even longer to become a citizen Only because you did not heed concerns that you had unnecessarily complicated what should have been a simple immigration bill. This should have been split rather than being clarked as-is with the Jester bit shoehorned in. I objected from the outset. Nothing changed. |
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Aug 2, 2015 11:13:33 GMT -6
It appears to me that a lot of people complaining about the new position being created have supported and voted in favour of the Poet Laureate bill just last year. What's the difference, really?
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Post by Françal Ian Lux on Aug 2, 2015 11:25:21 GMT -6
If this bill fails, I can assure you that the immigration ministry will take action concerning her attempt for citizenship
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 2, 2015 11:28:33 GMT -6
If this bill fails, I can assure you that the immigration ministry will take action concerning her attempt for citizenship How? Time for a regular petition is expired. |
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 2, 2015 11:31:37 GMT -6
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Aug 2, 2015 12:15:44 GMT -6
If this bill fails, I can assure you that the immigration ministry will take action concerning her attempt for citizenship What "action" can the immigration ministry take? It cannot unilaterally grant her citizenship. It cannot re-petition for her without a new introductory period. It cannot force the prospective to participate in Talossa. It cannot issue a Grant of Citizenship. As for combining the creation of a new position with a bill for citizenship, it may cause more harm than good. There was no reason to tie one with the other. |
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 2, 2015 12:23:57 GMT -6
As for combining the creation of a new position with a bill for citizenship, it may cause more harm than good. There was no reason to tie one with the other. Well, I guess I've learned my lesson. Will people support it if I promise never to do it again  ? |
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Post by Françal Ian Lux on Aug 2, 2015 12:26:04 GMT -6
If this bill fails, I can assure you that the immigration ministry will take action concerning her attempt for citizenship What "action" can the immigration ministry take? It cannot unilaterally grant her citizenship. It cannot re-petition for her without a new introductory period. It cannot force the prospective to participate in Talossa. It cannot issue a Grant of Citizenship. As for combining the creation of a new position with a bill for citizenship, it may cause more harm than good. There was no reason to tie one with the other. Her application deadline is 4 August. If we can't petition for an extension, we will reboot her application and reintroduce her as a new prospect. She's just going to have to deal with another application process if she still wants to be a citizen. This bill has put us in a difficult situation. Because it was drafted and clarked so close to her application's deadline, we can't very well issue another petition since that's been tied to this bill and it probably wouldn't make on time anyway |
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Aug 2, 2015 12:52:29 GMT -6
What "action" can the immigration ministry take? It cannot unilaterally grant her citizenship. It cannot re-petition for her without a new introductory period. It cannot force the prospective to participate in Talossa. It cannot issue a Grant of Citizenship. As for combining the creation of a new position with a bill for citizenship, it may cause more harm than good. There was no reason to tie one with the other. Her application deadline is 4 August. If we can't petition for an extension, we will reboot her application and reintroduce her as a new prospect. She's just going to have to deal with another application process if she still wants to be a citizen. This bill has put us in a difficult situation. Because it was drafted and clarked so close to her application's deadline, we can't very well issue another petition since that's been tied to this bill and it probably wouldn't make on time anyway Where do you get a deadline of August 4? If we applied the 40-day rule, the period of her application ended on July 4. The 40-day rule only is enacted if NO petition is laid before the SoS. A petition WAS laid before the SoS so this 40-day rule doesn't apply. What does apply is that within the 10-day period between a petition and a grant, no oath was presented and therefore the grant was not made. Technically, the application expired at that point unless an act of the Ziu superseded it (which is currently before the Ziu). Also, who exactly would you petition for an extension? An extension of what? She literally has only two paths open before her: 1) an act of the Ziu, and 2) a new immigration process from the beginning. |
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Post by Françal Ian Lux on Aug 2, 2015 12:59:26 GMT -6
Her application deadline is 4 August. If we can't petition for an extension, we will reboot her application and reintroduce her as a new prospect. She's just going to have to deal with another application process if she still wants to be a citizen. This bill has put us in a difficult situation. Because it was drafted and clarked so close to her application's deadline, we can't very well issue another petition since that's been tied to this bill and it probably wouldn't make on time anyway Where do you get a deadline of August 4? If we applied the 40-day rule, the period of her application ended on July 4. The 40-day rule only is enacted if NO petition is laid before the SoS. A petition WAS laid before the SoS so this 40-day rule doesn't apply. What does apply is that within the 10-day period between a petition and a grant, no oath was presented and therefore the grant was not made. Technically, the application expired at that point unless an act of the Ziu superseded it (which is currently before the Ziu). Also, who exactly would you petition for an extension? An extension of what? She literally has only two paths open before her: 1) an act of the Ziu, and 2) a new immigration process from the beginning. If it's not apparent to you, I'm actually working for her benefit. Forgive me if I'm not well versed in the laws as you are, doctor. If you couldn't tell, there's a very good chance this bill before the Ziu will not pass. As you've already suggested, what the Ministry will most likely do if such a situation occur will be to restart her application process |
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 2, 2015 13:04:41 GMT -6
I know there probably is not, but is there a way to split the bills once they have been Clarked, if none of the language is changed?
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Aug 2, 2015 13:07:08 GMT -6
If it's not apparent to you, I'm actually working for her benefit. Forgive me if I'm not well versed in the laws as you are, doctor. If you couldn't tell, there's a very good chance this bill before the Ziu will not pass. As you've already suggested, what the Ministry will most likely do if such a situation occur will be to restart her application process I'm not entirely sure if the tone is sarcastic or not but I will proceed assuming it is not. I have no issue if she gets citizenship or not. My issue is that the process must be followed and those with governmental powers should know how to exercise those powers legally. I could very well have ignored the fact that she didn't respond to her oath of citizenship until several days past the window but that would have not been legal. Imagine the consequences if someone is granted citizenship improperly and that person goes on to dramatically affect Talossa (i.e. becomes Seneschal or an MC). Anything that "citizen" does is inorganic and could throw a huge wrench into things if the improper grant is discovered. Couple that with the ill-advised decision to tie her citizenship up with the creation of a new job and it is little wonder that controversy ensues. There is a reason we have a hopper and any MC who ignores the advice in the hopper does so at his or her own peril. It is a tragedy that the author of the Phoole Act chose to ignore the advice and it is tragic that Ms. Shapera may be harmed because of it. |
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Aug 2, 2015 13:07:46 GMT -6
I know there probably is not, but is there a way to split the bills once they have been Clarked, if none of the language is changed? No, that is not possible. Once clerked it must remain as written. |
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 2, 2015 13:20:21 GMT -6
Couple that with the ill-advised decision to tie her citizenship up with the creation of a new job and it is little wonder that controversy ensues. There is a reason we have a hopper and any MC who ignores the advice in the hopper does so at his or her own peril. It is a tragedy that the author of the Phoole Act chose to ignore the advice and it is tragic that Ms. Shapera may be harmed because of it. I grossly underestimated the negative feedback I would get for doing so. After a few concerns, the bill proceeded without much controversy, which apparently led me to believe that those with concerns had changed their mind, and I could go forward. |
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