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Post by Françal Ian Lux on Aug 2, 2015 13:22:53 GMT -6
If it's not apparent to you, I'm actually working for her benefit. Forgive me if I'm not well versed in the laws as you are, doctor. If you couldn't tell, there's a very good chance this bill before the Ziu will not pass. As you've already suggested, what the Ministry will most likely do if such a situation occur will be to restart her application process I'm not entirely sure if the tone is sarcastic or not but I will proceed assuming it is not. I have no issue if she gets citizenship or not. My issue is that the process must be followed and those with governmental powers should know how to exercise those powers legally. I could very well have ignored the fact that she didn't respond to her oath of citizenship until several days past the window but that would have not been legal. Imagine the consequences if someone is granted citizenship improperly and that person goes on to dramatically affect Talossa (i.e. becomes Seneschal or an MC). Anything that "citizen" does is inorganic and could throw a huge wrench into things if the improper grant is discovered. Couple that with the ill-advised decision to tie her citizenship up with the creation of a new job and it is little wonder that controversy ensues. There is a reason we have a hopper and any MC who ignores the advice in the hopper does so at his or her own peril. It is a tragedy that the author of the Phoole Act chose to ignore the advice and it is tragic that Ms. Shapera may be harmed because of it. That wasn't sarcasm doctor. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I agree that procedures like this must be met with extreme scrutiny. I only meant that the immigration ministry will do whatever it can to give her the fair opportunity to become a citizen in light of this bill |
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Aug 2, 2015 14:24:19 GMT -6
It seems there have been a few misunderstandings in this thread, so therefore, let me clarify where the Interior Ministry stands.
The 40-day time period begins when an applicant first posts on Wittenberg, not when an application is posted. In addition, the SoS terminates applications once this time period has expired, which has been done a few times today.
The 10-day window occurs following a petition, and within those 10 days an applicant must take his or her oath of citizenship. If the oath isn't returned within those 10 days, the SoS may not grant citizenship pursuant to that petition.
However, if a petition is laid upon the table during the 40-day time period, the time period is essentially null and void, as the application can no longer be terminated pursuant to the time period provision.
Of course, the Interior Ministry may at any time terminate an application pursuant to Lex.E.5, which requires the "disappointed applicant" to seek citizenship via the Ziu, if he or she still wishes to become a citizen.
Ann-Elizabeth Shapera, it seems, has fallen through a crack. There is no provision allowing for an application to be terminated outside of Lex.E.5 if the 10-day window hasn't been met, and as she is still interested in obtaining citizenship, and is active, the Interior Ministry will not be terminating her application as doing so would also terminate her Wittenberg account. In addition, there is no automatic expiration of her application either.
The law does not speak to whether or not a second petition may be made if the 10-day window on the first petition has expired. However, granting citizenship falls under the purview of the Chancery, and as such we are required to defer to their interpretation of the law here, as the Interior Ministry cannot force a grant to be issued.
The Ziu can still direct grants of citizenship be issued to anyone whenever it wishes to, and given the circumstances, it remains the only method for which Ann-Elizabeth Shapera can obtain citizenship at this point.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Aug 2, 2015 14:43:24 GMT -6
I'm against having a Royal Jester. This Kingdom is silly enough as it stands. Also, I'm a Republican.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Aug 2, 2015 17:18:22 GMT -6
I do not see any harm in having a Royal Jester. No, really: what could be the harm in having some non-political role for somebody?
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Aug 2, 2015 21:22:33 GMT -6
It's one more (arguably useless) position, offered to a prospective that, while nice enough, hasn't proven themselves particularly worthy of special distinction here. Let her wow everyone with her service and dedication, then propose extra status. To do offer it up front cheapens the value of citizenship itself. |
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001 
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Aug 3, 2015 5:20:00 GMT -6
It's one more (arguably useless) position, offered to a prospective that, while nice enough, hasn't proven themselves particularly worthy of special distinction here. Let her wow everyone with her service and dedication, then propose extra status. To do offer it up front cheapens the value of citizenship itself. True, true. I just don't want to have her waiting around an extra month. I messed up and I don't want it delaying someone else. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Aug 3, 2015 5:28:37 GMT -6
It's one more (arguably useless) position, offered to a prospective that, while nice enough, hasn't proven themselves particularly worthy of special distinction here. Let her wow everyone with her service and dedication, then propose extra status. To do offer it up front cheapens the value of citizenship itself. Well, the bill does not grant the naturalised citizen any "extra status". It just says, "by the way, we also now shall have a Royal Jester". There is no appointing of Ann-Elizabeth Shapera to the Jestersqåb. |
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Aug 3, 2015 5:52:35 GMT -6
Well, the bill does not grant the naturalised citizen any "extra status". It just says, "by the way, we also now shall have a Royal Jester". There is no appointing of Ann-Elizabeth Shapera to the Jestersqåb. True, it just says "We have a perfectly qualified candidate at our doorstep" ... and no other obvious candidate ...for a job we don't need. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Aug 3, 2015 6:05:02 GMT -6
Well, the bill does not grant the naturalised citizen any "extra status". It just says, "by the way, we also now shall have a Royal Jester". There is no appointing of Ann-Elizabeth Shapera to the Jestersqåb. True, it just says "We have a perfectly qualified candidate at our doorstep" ... and no other obvious candidate ...for a job we don't need. Remember that the WHEREAS-sections are entirely irrelevant, Seb. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Aug 3, 2015 6:07:30 GMT -6
Also, do we really need the Civil Service? Do we need the Ministry of Culture? Do we need the Poet Laureate? Do we need the BEER? Do we need the Ministry of Defence?
Do we?
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Aug 3, 2015 6:49:37 GMT -6
True, it just says "We have a perfectly qualified candidate at our doorstep" ... and no other obvious candidate ...for a job we don't need. Remember that the WHEREAS-sections are entirely irrelevant, Seb. If that's true, perhaps we'd all appreciate reading much shorter bills with that section removed... however, then we really wouldn't necessarily follow the same the path of logic that the sponsors followed, that underlies the need for the bill. In this case, the WHEREAS section is a gigantic neon flashing sign that points at said candidate, who, once granted citizenship, is identified and eligible for the King to appoint to serve at his pleasure under new law. I get that you don't see the harm here. Hard-wiring useless positions into law that we don't need or can't reliably fill isn't any more harmful than claiming additional physical territory that we don't, or couldn't possibly, inhabit. Maybe that MOON act deserves another look? No. I'd shoot down the moon, too. Talossa is most fortunate to have evolved from a G-rated boyhood bedroom fantasy into an actual society. We have a treasury and we have significant intellectual property, all enabled by real people doing real work here each day. To keep coming into work as I've done these last eighteen months, I guess I need to feel like we're continuing to evolve, and not making ourselves into the joke that most micronations are. Fancy titles. Busywork and fluff. If this passes and no "Phoole" is appointed, we've added fluff to the law. If this passes and the appointed "Phoole" stops showing up for work, we've added fluff to the law. If this passes and the appointed "Phoole" (or a successor) entertains the King and citizens for years to come, I'll be pleasantly surprised. For everyone's future reference: If I criticize your bill then remain silent as your bill remains unchanged, I haven't changed my mind. I just don't see the need to repeat what you already read. |
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Aug 3, 2015 6:51:01 GMT -6
Also, do we really need the Civil Service? Do we need the Ministry of Culture? Do we need the Poet Laureate? Do we need the BEER? Do we need the Ministry of Defence? Do we?No, yes, yes, no, no. |
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Aug 3, 2015 6:56:19 GMT -6
Also, do we really need the Civil Service? Do we need the Ministry of Culture? Do we need the Poet Laureate? Do we need the BEER? Do we need the Ministry of Defence? Do we?Civil Service: Yes. That it stumbled out of the gate doesn't change my impression that it can, and will, do tangible good. Put someone with vision in charge. Ministry of Culture? Absolutely yes. Our culture has more riches than the treasury. Poet Laureate? Yes, and I'd love it if he was more active. Culture. BEER: No. Ministry of Defence: No. |
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Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Aug 3, 2015 7:05:59 GMT -6
But then, if the Poet Laureate is culture (fully agreed), what's the Royal Jester? A nonsensical position? If so, I'd like to remind that beer is legal tender in Talossa. What's sillier?
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Aug 3, 2015 7:39:35 GMT -6
I didn't think we still had a Ministry of Defence, since it was combined with two other ministries into the Ministry of Interior.  That being said, there will always be a need for some sort of defence service in our Kingdom. After all, like we say, Talossa is a real country, just a small one. Of course, one could look at it from a different view and argue that we don't need any office or position for anything, because in the end, Talossa really only exists on a third-party hosted (at least for now) online forum. |
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