Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 23, 2012 22:03:21 GMT -6
However, for real world application, one need only look to Australia and Ireland. Also, for us Americans, one need only look to Minneapolis, Berkeley, Oakland, and San Francisco. All of which are, again, cases where the ballot is secret, not open, and thus late voters do not know for certain how their votes could affect the outcome, and thus cannot manipulate their votes to manipulate the count.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 23, 2012 21:50:35 GMT -6
We have used IRV for electing the President of the Republic for 7 years and it has worked better than fine, and I'm not just saying that because I won the last two times. Yes. You also had a secret ballot. In secret ballot situations, non-monotonic systems work well enough; the wonky results, while theoretically possible, are extremely rare in practice. In open ballot situations, though, non-monotonic systems encourage withholding votes as long as possible in order to maximize a voter's power to manipulate the count through a strategic vote.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 23, 2012 18:53:25 GMT -6
Hmm, I hadnt considered that. Are there any real world scenarios like this? It seems odd that GLORIA supporters favour ABBA and ABBA supporters favour TUSK and TUSK supporters favour GLORIA. Ooops. That was actually supposed to be: 8 #1 GLORIA, #2 TUSK
To make it look more like real life, a possible US example: 16 #1 Republican, #2 Libertarian 2 #1 Republican, #2 Democrat 1 #1 Libertarian, #2 Republican 10 #1 Libertarian, #2 Democrat 4 #1 Democrat, #2 Republican 8 #1 Democrat, #2 Libertarian So, we've got a right-leaning electorate here with, unusually, a strong Libertarian party (presumably made viable by IRV being used in the locale). Most Republicans in the district favor the Libertarian over the Democrat, but a couple think the specific Libertarian is a lunatic and would rather have the Democrat. Most of the Libertarians in this election have a special dislike of this election's religious conservative Republican, but one still prefers him to the Democrat. The Democrats, like the Republicans, overall prefer the Libertarian to the Great Enemy, but four of them think the Libertarian is a nut and would rather have the Republican. Then we have two other voters coming along at the end, who are Republicans. If they vote for the Republican #1, the Democrat wins, even if they vote the Libertarian #2. If they vote for the Libertarian #1, the Republican wins (even if they go nuts and vote the Democrat #2).
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 23, 2012 18:03:32 GMT -6
Let's consider a case where there are three candidates - ABBA, TUSK, and GLORIA.
So far, 41 votes have been cast, with the following ranks:
16 #1 ABBA, #2 TUSK
2 #1 ABBA, #2 GLORIA
1 #1 TUSK, #2 ABBA
10 #1 TUSK, #2 GLORIA
4 #1 GLORIA, #2 ABBA
8 #1 GLORIA, #2 ABBA
There are two voters who have not yet cast, both who favor ABBA #1, TUSK #2. How should they cast their votes?
If they cast them #1 ABBA, #2 TUSK, then GLORIA wins, because TUSK is eliminated and its second votes put GLORIA over, 22-21. If they cast them #1 TUSK, #2 ABBA, then ABBA wins, because GLORIA is eliminated and its second votes put ABBA up 22-21. So, since they want ABBA to win, they should vote for TUSK #1.
In a secret vote election, they would wake up the next day and go, "Dammit, if I wanted ABBA to win, I should have voted for TUSK". Because they voted the way they preferred, their candidate lost. In an open-vote election, they would deliberately have voted against the way they preferred, and so ensured their preferred candidate won; and all ten TUSK voters who rated GLORIA #2 are going, "Oh, man! If you had voted they way you honestly believe, our #2 choice would have come out ahead of they guy we like the least! You only won because you lied about who you liked best when we were honest!"
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Stamps?
Mar 23, 2012 16:32:42 GMT -6
Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 23, 2012 16:32:42 GMT -6
I've been exploring the idea in general, and have found that there's a business on the Internet that will print and ship (within the US) 20,000 1"×1" rounded-corner black-and-white glossy-coated stickers on rolls for $ 203.82. So, I further poked around available public domain images for a crow, and put together this thing as a possible stamp design (converted here into a PNG instead of the vector file that would be submitted to the printer). What do people think? Attachments:
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 23, 2012 16:24:55 GMT -6
Ah, the page I pointed to is liked on the Judiciary page (Talossan Law > The Judiciary) as "Click here to review recent decisions of the Cort. " Obviously, something better is desirable.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 23, 2012 16:16:10 GMT -6
Meh, IRV.
IRV is innately subject to degenerate cases where ranking someone higher can accidentally cause them to lose; with an open ballot voters can actually consciously engage in such manipulations. And if you're using a secret ballot, the sensible thing is to be using a neutral site like BallotBin for the increased resistance to election official and hacker shenanigans over a system controlled by a Talossan, at which point you can get the superior Ranked Pairs counting system at no additional overhead anyway.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 21, 2012 21:03:34 GMT -6
For reference, I went on Google Maps and got an image of the islands, which I've circled in yellow: Under the current Organic Law, the law might be seen as not actually an annexation, but a clarification as to what the status of the islands is under Art II Sec 3's "The territorial waters of the Kingdom extend half-way out into the Milwaukee River, south and west of the national territory" and Art II Sec 4's "Any lands or islands that are formed or that may appear in Talossa's territorial waters, in whole or in part, shall form an irrevocable part of the national territory."
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 21, 2012 18:22:04 GMT -6
Oh wise and merciful GTZT, Might there be room on the Kingdom's website for a law library? Nothing fancy, a page similar to the one housing statutory law. When we created the office of Clerk of Courts, this was mentioned in there as a way of indexing court decisions for study and review by law students and those preparing cases before the courts. As the Clerk of Courts might kick the heck out of me if I add to his responsibilities, I would be happy to handle this little section of space, but I want to see if such real estate is even up for grabs. Well, there's already this page, I note.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 21, 2012 17:35:42 GMT -6
Since at least one of the persons named have voted this Clark (and also because I haven't been checking this thread), I hope you'll all be okay with the changes mentioned above becoming official with the April Clark. I have no objection.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 21, 2012 14:12:06 GMT -6
That is one of the better schlastic emblems, very nice. But....do I dare ask what happened to the Squirrel? maybe we should do a Athletic Coat of Arms. A squirrel will definitely feature in the athletic logo for the University (when designed), much like the original University Seal with the geometric shapes will also be used in appropriate contexts. The result will be a variety of symbols of the University with specific uses, rather than trying to jam every possible idea into a single busy, unaesthetic coat of arms and then pasting that coat everywhere. By analogy, consider the variety of symbols in use at, for example, the University of Texas at Austin, which include a university seal, the Longhorn logo, and a stacked type wordmark. Or at the University of Texas at El Paso, which include a university seal, a university logo that includes a pickaxe as the T in UTEP, and Paydirt Pete.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 20, 2012 18:50:44 GMT -6
I would like to hear what Istefan and Flip think, but I agree with most of this. I have parts I agree with, parts I disagree with, and parts that I'd probably debate about how to properly define. I have basically conservative instincts, is the difficulty. I'm not a particularly good fit for a reforming/progressive party, so I don't think such a party should look heavily at what I want when deciding on its platform. Arguably, I'm a natural member of the RUMP who drifted into the CSP for reasons that may well be transient, rather than a natural member of the CSPP. (But what about what I've been doing in the Hopper? I entertain many notions that I never actually marry.)
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 20, 2012 17:59:43 GMT -6
Hear, hear!
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 20, 2012 17:28:51 GMT -6
Thank you. NB: The gilt edges of the book pages is intentionally just "artistic interpretation" or elaboration, not part of the official blazon. It's still identifiably the same arms whether the page edges are argent or they are or. The artist in this case was copy-and-pasting the gilt-edge book from the Yale arms, having not been happy with his attempt to copy-and-paste the brown-edged books from the Harvard arms. He liked the gilt effect and so did not recolor the edges argent. The Regent agreed that the effect looked good, but was unwilling to make the blazon unnecessarily more complicated. The artist considered punching the Regent in the nose for his intransigence, but realized that was futile, since that would also mean the Regent hitting the artist in his nose simultaneously.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 19, 2012 19:24:33 GMT -6
Incidentally, although I did change this a bit in my revision, I'm a bit puzzled at the following objection: The problem here is that StatLaw can be changed by the Ziu or a PD quite easily before an election, so we could have secret ballots one election or non secret ballots the next, depending on which party has the most seats in the Ziu or which PM is in charge. Therefore this bill has a major flaw in allowing the laws regarding elections and ballots to be changed fairly easily without referring the matter to the citizens of Talossa. Australia, Britain, New Zealand, and the United States all share the "major flaw" that whether ballots are open or secret is no more entrenched than any other statutory law. (In the US and Australia, there may be entrenchment on the state level, but the federal power over the manner of elections allows the national legislature to overcome that with a mere statute.) I am quite interested to know why the Prime Minister thinks this would be especially problematic for Talossa.
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