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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jan 27, 2013 22:47:52 GMT -6
He has already admited his crime to His Majesty. But i do belive the trial should be fair. However guilt has already been admitted. Point taken. Emotions are high tonight, so, perhaps, I'm being a little jumpy. I just felt your statement read a little harsh.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Jan 27, 2013 22:49:15 GMT -6
I'm in agreement with Miestra and Evan. From what I know, an Act of the Ziu can restore his citizenship as can a Prime Dictate from the Seneschal. I thought we did away with the PD grants of citizenship. An Act of the Ziu would, however, do it. Do we need to restore, though? I disagree with Sir Mick here--although we here in internet land do not have the luxuries of a jail when offenses occur (unless you count Hool's basement), and although no precedent exists where a non-citizen has been prosecuted, it doesn't mean it isn't possible. If a crime is committed on Witt, it is deemed to have been committed in Talossa, and a just because the criminal "hightailed it to Mexico" as Miestra put it, doesn't mean that they can't be held accountable for their crimes. The only difference is, Eric could just decide in the middle of his trial not to continue and leave, because we have no police force and can't actually keep him at the Defense table. Of course, as long as he is "sitting" there, we have an obligation to enforce the laws of the Kingdom, and hold him accountable for his crimes.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 22:50:24 GMT -6
Sorry about that. It was kinda rushed in all honesty.
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Post by Iustì Carlüs Canun on Jan 27, 2013 22:54:17 GMT -6
Even if we did let him back in for the express purpose of giving him a trial, I can't imagine an outcome that doesn't include the "death penalty" anyway, given that the fraud was on such a massive scale, and that he has admitted his guilt.
It's entirely possible that it works like US law in this case. If you commit a crime in the US, your citizenship status matters not a bit. And since this was, for all intents and purposes, a crime committed in Talossa (well, on Witt), I'd think we could have him back for a trial, although I don't see much point in it, since he's already confessed.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 27, 2013 22:56:03 GMT -6
I'm in agreement with Miestra and Evan. From what I know, an Act of the Ziu can restore his citizenship as can a Prime Dictate from the Seneschal. I think we should insitute a temporary say of citizenship for the duration of a trial so an example can be made of him to deter this behaviour in the future Doesn't sound like you want a fair trial there. Just saying. Eðo - What would we prove by a trial? He admitted guilt, he renounced, and all of his "identities" have been removed. That is no longer an issue. Nothing that "Sarah" did in the Cosa affected any legislation. That is not an issue. Why would we need to take a case to Cort ? What judgement could be passed, that hasn't already been done? If he decides to re-apply for Citizenship (and I have no idea why he would) - would we charge him for actions done when he was a Citizen before? What good would that do? I agree, many of us have been betrayed by his actions. For example, I can speak directly to the actions he took with the College of Arms. Of his 17 personna, 15 asked for Arms. 8 were awarded CoA's, (the other 7 were up for granting next month )of which Duke Hooligan and I have had to go back and amend our records to reflect that he lied to us. Not only did we spend many hours creating those Arms, but now we have spent hours undoing that forgery. He also created conflicts in the College, that we are still addressing. I honestly don't see why we should re-grant him Citizenship (again), to only strip it from him (again).
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 22:56:23 GMT -6
If it comes to a trial, I personally will plead for leniency - a year or two year's deprival of citizenship, with the opportunity to beg for readmittance after that (but no promises). He's done a terrible thing - and a personally hurtful and shameful thing to me, I might add - but not an unforgivable thing IMHO. But let us let the Cort decide that.
EDIT: In response to what Mick is saying - I take the point, but I am in favour of letting Eric try to begin to work off his debt to this nation by facing up to his crimes in open court. I would be in favour of a "restorative justice" approach, with victim statements (and believe me, I've already started composing one in my head). I won't feel like I - a victim of his frauds - have justice unless it's done in a Talossan court in front of my peers. Nor will he have the opportunity to begin the process of rehabilitiation, which every offender should be granted. (I don't believe in the death penalty or life-without-possibility-of-parole.)
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 23:00:22 GMT -6
Even though he has admitted his guilt. Passing judgement and sentencing in the corts will give an offical judgement aof the crimes will be acknowlages and acvountability will be proven.
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Post by Munditenens Tresplet on Jan 27, 2013 23:03:51 GMT -6
...I would be in favour of a "restorative justice" approach, with victim statements (and believe me, I've already started composing one in my head). I won't feel like I - a victim of his frauds - have justice unless it's done in a Talossan court in front of my peers. Nor will he have the opportunity to begin the process of rehabilitiation, which every offender should be granted. (I don't believe in the death penalty or life-without-possibility-of-parole.) This is how justice should be. Rehabilitation is the key--Capital Punishment and Life without Parole solve nothing. Eric apologized. Eric tried to un-Renounce his citizenship, but was too late. Eric wants a trial. Eric wants to stand accountable. Let's give Eric a chance.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 23:06:58 GMT -6
Thanks, Dien. Can I reiterate that I, as the leader of the party which has learned that 25% of its Cosâ seats are undeserved because of his fraud, really want to make my victim statement in open court and hear Eric respond to it in front of the nation. Maybe his other victims feel similarly.
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Post by Martì Prevuost on Jan 27, 2013 23:07:55 GMT -6
The Umpteeth Immigration Reform Act only authorizes two means by which someone may obtain citizenship - which, I believe, would be the first requirement since there is no precedent wherein the Corts have tried a non-citizen. It is conceivable that the Corts could entertain such an action, but that has not yet been determined. According to the above cited law, he can apply for citizenship through the ImmMin or a member of the Ziu may introduce legislation to grant him citizenship. There is no provision for a either a PD or Royal Decree to circumvent these processes. MAG
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 23:15:31 GMT -6
Well, so I suppose the ImmMin gets to answer whether she would entertain such a citizen request so we can try him and punish him!
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Post by Colonel Mximo Carbonèl on Jan 27, 2013 23:15:54 GMT -6
I don't believe in this crap. He should be kick out of Talossa for good. We must stay strong. And show to the world of micronation that Talossa is not a joke. I want a law with ID verification for every new and old citizens. When I join Talossa in 1997 I have to send some real money in order to get a book for a citenzenship test. Not just be their for 15 days in a virtual forum...
Talossa is not a joke... I ask for citenzenship termination after a fair trial.
Mximo
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jan 27, 2013 23:20:57 GMT -6
Mick, your questions to me have been answered by Miestra, Evan and Dien.
Due process, rehabilitation, etc.
Simply saying 'he's guilty, banish him forevars' isn't justice. The outcome of the trial may already be predictable, but a trial should be had nonetheless. I don't know how our laws work regarding sentencing, but, I feel lifetime banishment to be a bit far, even in this case. Voter fraud is serious stuff, but, I believe in the UK and USA the penalty is not life in prison, but, more 1-2 years and possible disenfranchisement. I think this should translate in Talossan terms as 1-2 years Witt ban and a possible period of disenfranchisement.
(I don't particularly feel a victim to these crimes, but I empathize with Miestra's statements regarding proper closure).
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 27, 2013 23:24:15 GMT -6
Mick, your questions to me have been answered by Miestra, Evan and Dien. Due process, rehabilitation, etc. Simply saying 'he's guilty, banish him forevars' isn't justice. The outcome of the trial may already be predictable, but a trial should be had nonetheless. I don't know how our laws work regarding sentencing, but, I feel lifetime banishment to be a bit far, even in this case. Voter fraud is serious stuff, but, I believe in the UK and USA the penalty is not life in prison, but, more 1-2 years and possible disenfranchisement. I think this should translate in Talossan terms as 1-2 years Witt ban and a possible period of disenfranchisement. (I don't particularly feel a victim to these crimes, but I empathize with Miestra's statements regarding proper closure). Sorry, it took me a bit to write all of that out lots of IM's and all that.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jan 27, 2013 23:24:15 GMT -6
I don't believe in this crap. He should be kick out of Talossa for good. We must stay strong. And show to the world of micronation that Talossa is not a joke. I want a law with ID verification for every new and old citizens. When I join Talossa in 1997 I have to send some real money in order to get a book for a citenzenship test. Not just be their for 15 days in a virtual forum... Talossa is not a joke... I ask for citenzenship termination after a fair trial. Mximo Calm down and put the pitchfork away. The USA and UK (and indeed Canada) are not jokes. These countries do not hand out lifetime banishments or imprisonments for this kind of fraud. If Talossa is not to be taken as a bathtub joke micronation then we should act in proportion to the crime committed.
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