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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 20:28:52 GMT -6
I am surprised an disappointed that someone would do something like this. It is a sad day for Talossa. And we must try to prevent this in the fututre and use this a lesson to us all. We must strive towards a goal to prevent this to happen again. Im not sure how but its nessarcary for talossa this happens.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 21:51:24 GMT -6
Really? No-one's prepared to waive the rules so a malefactor can face justice?
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 21:54:52 GMT -6
I think we should insitute a temporary say of citizenship for the duration of a trial so an example can be made of him to deter this behaviour in the future
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jan 27, 2013 21:58:08 GMT -6
Really? No-one's prepared to waive the rules so a malefactor can face justice? He broke OUR laws and rules and you would propose that we bend them for him? You have got to be kidding.
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Post by Martì Prevuost on Jan 27, 2013 21:58:26 GMT -6
I know of no legal means for an accepted renunciation to be held in abeyance. MAG
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 22:01:21 GMT -6
Would there be any way of trying him without re enstating his citizenship?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 22:02:27 GMT -6
As much as Eric's stunt has embarrassed and hurt me in particular, the ZRT in general, all ex-Republicans in more general and the nation in extra-general, I do not believe he's a bad person. He clearly has issues (hell, I believe he has the whole volume) and I think he should be given his day in open court and judged by the people he has hurt. That's called "closure". I don't think it's wise to leave it like this.
It would be nice if the King could intervene to allow this to happen - but if it really is no longer possible, then forget it, an opportunity missed.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jan 27, 2013 22:04:10 GMT -6
Why do we need to try him? Why drag on this drama for any longer than necessary? Why don't we simply take this as a lesson, hold each other in our thoughts and get through this? Why do we have to keep this going? He did some bad things, he left, he's gone. We will go on and we will find new ways of welcoming new citizens and we will learn from this whole thing. I do not see why a trial is necessary for a "former citizen." Let's absorb the shock of all of this, and move on stronger and wiser.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 22:06:02 GMT -6
Also if we do allow these crimes to go untested in cort are we not setting a presidence that if the citizen does this the renounces everything made right? I dont think thats wise. We need to make a stance in a cort case against him so that we may have tried him under law. An so long as his account still exists in any form is he still not in talossa therefore subject to our laws and trials still?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 22:12:15 GMT -6
I agree with Evan. No-one should be able to escape justice by just dumping their citizenship. I do NOT agree that the best thing to do is "absorb the shock and move on". I believe in restorative justice. And I also believe that Eric is not beyond saving - in an ideal world, I would like to see him tried, sentenced to deprival of citizenship with a year or two years' "no pardon" period. (After that period he should be allowed the right to beg for pardon, although not to have it automatically granted by any means.)
If Evan is right and we can try him without restoring his citizenship, then perhaps best of both worlds. If so possible, I volunteer to bind him by law and bring him before the Cort.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 27, 2013 22:13:51 GMT -6
Also if we do allow these crimes to go untested in cort are we not setting a presidence that if the citizen does this the renounces everything made right? I dont think thats wise. We need to make a stance in a cort case against him so that we may have tried him under law. An so long as his account still exists in any form is he still not in talossa therefore subject to our laws and trials still? Actually, in that he renounced his Citizenship, and it was (legally) accepted by the Secretary of State, he is no longer a Citizen of Talossa. That is precedence. Talossa doesn't have jurisdiction over him now. While his account may exist on Wittenberg, that doesn't make him accountable to the Laws of Talossa.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 27, 2013 22:16:18 GMT -6
If someone committed massive electoral fraud in the USA, then renounced his citizenship and high-tailed it to Mexico, then volunteered to give himself up and face justice, would you recommend saying "screw you, we don't want you back, rot in Mexico"?
I don't know, this might be my own quixotic sense of what justice is, and as many know here I put justice before the letter of the law. I await the King's advice as to whether my preferred course of action is even possible without a law change.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 22:19:23 GMT -6
Also a person in say the usa, ir any other country any non citizens are still subject to the laws of the land so long as they are within their countries borders.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Jan 27, 2013 22:35:36 GMT -6
I'm in agreement with Miestra and Evan. From what I know, an Act of the Ziu can restore his citizenship as can a Prime Dictate from the Seneschal. I think we should insitute a temporary say of citizenship for the duration of a trial so an example can be made of him to deter this behaviour in the future Doesn't sound like you want a fair trial there. Just saying.
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Post by Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir on Jan 27, 2013 22:40:48 GMT -6
He has already admited his crime to His Majesty. But i do belive the trial should be fair. However guilt has already been admitted.
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