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Post by Martì Prevuost on Jul 20, 2012 21:22:47 GMT -6
Much of the anti-Carpenter amendment discussion focuses on the individual detracter's non-faith in referenced carpenter's diety and thus in their opposition to said carpenter's kingship being included in OrgLaw.
Interestingly enough, OrgLaw already incorporates a couple of things which, I daresay, many Talossans who oppose the Carpenter amendment also don't believe in but there's no outrage at these incorporations ... which have existed since 1997.
Specifically - HMKJ1 is officially, per OrgLaw "John, by the Grace of God, King of Talossa ... Sovereign Lord and Protector of Pengöpäts and the New Falklands, Defender of the Faith ..."
Do we all believe in "our inexplicable and inextricable connexion somehow to Berbers" as is enshrined in the Preamble to OrgLaw?
Just asking. MAG
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Post by Eldsfäts Blasiüs on Jul 20, 2012 21:51:43 GMT -6
I cheerfully admit that 1) I wasn't being tongue-in-cheek and 2) would love to see this pass. I also admit that I don't see much hope for its passage. But I do believe in miracles, so I'm willing to ride this pony out. You just want to keep poking us with that stick, don't you. So, you would like to see me, and others, renounce our citizenship's because of your personal agenda? Your "hope" is more important than our personal beliefs? Wonderful. Sir Mick, What do you want from me? I created a party that said I wanted to institute the Social Reign of Christ the King. I paid $20 and received votes on that platform. Now, wonder of wonders, you're upset because... I'm serious about it. I suppose I should be equally pissed about the abortion thing. And in all honesty, I am. So should I threaten to leave if it isn't struck in this Cosa? Seriously.... what reasonable response do you want from CeR and from me?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 20, 2012 22:19:55 GMT -6
You just want to keep poking us with that stick, don't you. So, you would like to see me, and others, renounce our citizenship's because of your personal agenda? Your "hope" is more important than our personal beliefs? Wonderful. Sir Mick, What do you want from me? I created a party that said I wanted to institute the Social Reign of Christ the King. I paid $20 and received votes on that platform. Now, wonder of wonders, you're upset because... I'm serious about it. I suppose I should be equally pissed about the abortion thing. And in all honesty, I am. So should I threaten to leave if it isn't struck in this Cosa? Seriously.... what reasonable response do you want from CeR and from me? MY personal agenda? What is that exactly? I don't want anyone to be forced to accept any religion to be a Citizen to Talossa? I don't what any deity to be anointed as greater than any other religion or belief in the world? That I don't want Talossa tied to any religion, what-so-ever? That I want the beliefs of all people to be accepted on equal grounds, without one being greater than another? That I don't want to be a second class citizen because I do not follow YOUR religion? I don't want any Citizen to be required to swear allegiance to YOUR religion, to be a Citizen? I'm sorry, I don't like Arrogance. No matter how it's worded , no matter how it's presented. Yeah, that's my agenda.
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Post by Eldsfäts Blasiüs on Jul 20, 2012 22:29:33 GMT -6
Sir Mick, What do you want from me? I created a party that said I wanted to institute the Social Reign of Christ the King. I paid $20 and received votes on that platform. Now, wonder of wonders, you're upset because... I'm serious about it. I suppose I should be equally pissed about the abortion thing. And in all honesty, I am. So should I threaten to leave if it isn't struck in this Cosa? Seriously.... what reasonable response do you want from CeR and from me? MY personal agenda? What is that exactly? I don't want anyone to be forced to accept any religion to be a Citizen to Talossa? I don't what any deity to be anointed as greater than any other religion or belief in the world? That I don't want Talossa tied to any religion, what-so-ever? That I want the beliefs of all people to be accepted on equal grounds, without one being greater than another? That I don't want to be a second class citizen because I do not follow YOUR religion? I don't want any Citizen to be required to swear allegiance to YOUR religion, to be a Citizen? I'm sorry, I don't like Arrogance. No matter how it's worded , no matter how it's presented. Yeah, that's my agenda. Quoted for preservation, since I nowhere accuse Sir Mick of an agenda and merely ask a reasonable question, which I note here has not been answered. You have, however, been the impetus for another action on my part... to which I direct your attention to the Hopper.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 20, 2012 22:44:47 GMT -6
MY personal agenda? What is that exactly? I don't want anyone to be forced to accept any religion to be a Citizen to Talossa? I don't what any deity to be anointed as greater than any other religion or belief in the world? That I don't want Talossa tied to any religion, what-so-ever? That I want the beliefs of all people to be accepted on equal grounds, without one being greater than another? That I don't want to be a second class citizen because I do not follow YOUR religion? I don't want any Citizen to be required to swear allegiance to YOUR religion, to be a Citizen? I'm sorry, I don't like Arrogance. No matter how it's worded , no matter how it's presented. Yeah, that's my agenda. Quoted for preservation, since I nowhere accuse Sir Mick of an agenda and merely ask a reasonable question, which I note here has not been answered. You have, however, been the impetus for another action on my part... to which I direct your attention to the Hopper. Play the game however you want. You can engrave my words into stone, if you will. If your joy is to drive a wedge into Talossa, then by all means - drive on. I see that you care not one whit about your fellow citizens. That it's all about you.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jul 20, 2012 23:00:20 GMT -6
"Seriously.... what reasonable response do you want from CeR and from me?"
I want you to respect every other Citizen of Talossa.
I want you to accept the personal beliefs of every other Citizen of Talossa.
I want you to understand that one is not required to accept ANY religion to be a Citizen of Talossa.
I want you to understand that a person is not required to accept the CeP's version of the world, but still can be a Talossan.
I want you to understand that we have a deep seated concept in Talossa, that no religion is better than any other religion.
I want you to understand that if you try and force the CeR's concepts of religious beliefs - that you are out of line, and inOrganic.
I want you to understand that you are quite offensive in your words, and your belief. To the point that you are willing to have many, many Citizens leave the Kingdom because of that.
I want you to understand, that you don't care if you offend others.
I want you to understand that your arrogance about all of the above is damaging to the Kingdom.
Please feel free to copy this, if you want.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jul 21, 2012 5:41:20 GMT -6
In Njal's Saga, one Icelander claims to have heard that Thor challenged Jesus to a fight and Jesus was too chicken even to show up. Congratulations on becoming the third person to mention Burnt Njal on Wittenberg XI. The first was me, and the second was King John, both here.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 22, 2012 16:34:58 GMT -6
After having met with the author of this piece of legislation, who is really a very sweet and approachable person, I do not believe he was being tongue-in-cheek. In fact, I dare say, while he recognizes that this probably won't pass, he would love to see this become a reality. ...and there's nothing wrong with that. I am sure there are millions of people in this world who would love to see Talossa become a Muslim Kingdom. If any of them joined Talossa and created a party for people like them, I hope we wouldn't yell at them when they Hoppered an act that says: WE think that Talossa would be cool if "Allah is great and the Koran rules" were in the OrgLaw, but we know most of the rest of the nation doesn't, and that's okay, but hey, this is just us saying what we think would be cool; feel free to say what you think would be cool too! That is all Al's "Jewish Carpenter" (and, in fact, V's "Lucifer Reigns") Amendment says. Al even put a bunch of "snowball's chance" and humorous text into his act. He said he knows it won't pass, but if someone forms a party that says "Talossa would be cool if X were the case" and then does not Hopper a bill advocating X, well, that's not a very principled person. If some atheist (like the TAAers) were to Hopper something putting "There Is No God" into the OrgLaw, I hope that (a) theists would not be angry (or at least not as virulent in their anger as we saw atheists being with Al) and (b) they would understand as keenly as Al does that such a thing will not pass and should not pass. Talossa is a multi-faith community. Everyone -- including Al -- respects this. And it is a free community. A community in which people should always feel free and encouraged to say, "I represent a group that thinks THIS would be cool, so hey, this is what we think would be cool, even though we know it won't be accepted by those of you who think it wouldn't." Hool
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Post by Eldsfäts Blasiüs on Jul 22, 2012 16:40:24 GMT -6
Hool, the issue that seems to have stoked the flames for some reason (which truly flabbergasts me) was when V mentioned that, during our meeting, it seemed like I would really like this to pass.
And so I felt compelled to either confirm or deny, and so I said that yes, snowball's chance in hell, but also yes, I'd love for it to pass.
(Some) people have gotten really, really bent out of shape over the fact that I'm proposing something that I'd really like to pass.... which my mind asplodes every time I think about, because why on earth would anyone propose legislation that they wouldn't want to pass?
Anywho, I've explained elsewhere that compelling people to follow a particular faith is an egregious sin, an atrocity really, as it eliminates free will and creates religion at gun point. I don't know what else I can say on this matter without re-beating an already-dead and festering horse.
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Owen Edwards
Puisne Justice
Posts: 1,400
Talossan Since: 12-8-2007
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jul 22, 2012 16:41:15 GMT -6
I add to Hooligan's observation that it would be fine for anyone else to put something similar up that this is all couched in terms of the democracy we operate under. Al hasn't led a violent Christian coup. He's asked "hey, guys, wanna do this?". If and when the Ziu says no, he'll say "hey, no hard feelings, but I had to try, it was what my voters wanted from me!".
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Jul 22, 2012 16:41:56 GMT -6
(Some) people have gotten really, really bent out of shape over the fact that I'm proposing something that I'd really like to pass.... which my mind asplodes every time I think about, because why on earth would anyone propose legislation that they wouldn't want to pass? I dont know, but the RUMP seems to do it every two cosas. Maybe they can explain.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jul 22, 2012 16:52:56 GMT -6
I dont know, but the RUMP seems to do it every two cosas. Maybe they can explain. Some things defy explanation. Mysteries for the ages. COMPLETELY off-topic historical note: the RUMP's "propose then vote-down" joke re: provincial status for Péngöpäts stems from a contradiction in OrgLaw, where in one place it says that Péngöpäts has a chance, then another says it doesn't. The latter was put in by a vindictive Ben after the Penguinea split, and he forgot to remove the former. The RUMP found the Organic inconsistency something it had to count to Talossan quirkiness, and is happy to quirk along. Hool
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on Jul 23, 2012 2:52:55 GMT -6
A community in which people should always feel free and encouraged to say, "I represent a group that thinks THIS would be cool, so hey, this is what we think would be cool, even though we know it won't be accepted by those of you who think it wouldn't." And don't forget that they're also free to say: "WTF is this?"
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 23, 2012 9:16:24 GMT -6
Okay now, let's stop being this harsh on our fellow CeR friends. Let's make it fair play, take it into account that Eldsfäts is just as much Christian as I am anti-Christian, and thus we oppose each other, but the reaction on S:r Blasiüs deeds seems a bit more harsh than it have been when I was announcing the TAA (probably becoming a catalisator of religious flamewars).
Me and him are doing pretty much the same thing from the opposite sides (the only difference I made no legislative proposals compared to some from CeR). Just as he want all the world become Christian, I want all the world become atheist. Both his and my dreams will probably never come true, so let's just satisfy with that CeR proposals will most probably not pass and live happily and with respect from both sides.
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