Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 14, 2012 15:26:27 GMT -6
I forgot about the CRO, but surely Reunision renders that party's platform obsolete? Cxhn. Lorentzescu's response was disappointing. One of the roadblocks to Reunision for a long time, as I have previously said, is that there seemed to be a strong "thin-skinnedness" in Kingdom political discourse, where banter, leg-pulling and political rhetoric were taken as hurtful personal insults. That kind of culture leads to the kind of political culture where a party can stand for "nothing really", rendering Cosâ elections a farce, a pretence of democratic politics. As opposed to the Republic, where my good friend Dieter and I are rude as mierdâ to each other all the time, and Defencists and Peculiarists swap insults, and it is considered all part of the fun. I thank s:reu da Dhi for his comprehensive answer. It appears, then, that the MRPT is a more ideologically focused "niche" party, with clear electoral reform planks, whereas the PPT was what is traditionally called a "pot-pie blob", or in socialist jargon a "swamp", whose members didn't have enough common ground to be coherent. Is this the case? If so, the RUMP truly appears to be the successor of the pre-2003 PC - a "pot-pie blob" of the centre-right establishment. The difference is of course that a pot-pie blob can be held together by power. Pot-pie blobs without power are subject to strong centrifugal tendencies. But I must say that I have no idea what "conservative" and "progressive" means in the context of Kingdom politics. Is it just like s:reu Earnest seems to think - that it's just a question of what "side" we are on in the politics of the nations where we live? Like in the US, where "conservatives" and "liberals" are more like tribes with duelling customs and idols rather than political movements? In that case, the ZRT - containing an actual Marxist like myself and a Texas conservative like GV - makes no sense. Because we stand for an actual Talossan programme - as does the MRPT. I'm not in favour of a directly-elected Seneschál but it's certainly an idea which deserves debate. Hopefully the ZRT and the APT - the Goats and the Ring-Tailed Lemurs - are here to shake up the non-RUMP political scene a bit. The ZRT is not necessarily anti-RUMP, considering the incredibly helpful role that the RUMP government have played in bringing about Reunision, and our shared Derivatist beliefs. The ZRT seeks to form part of the next Government of the Kingdom of Talossa - and of course can only achieve that if the RUMP wins less than an absolute majority - but at this stage is totally open to offers of coalition from any serious political force, and also the Peculiarists.
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Mar 14, 2012 16:01:52 GMT -6
... As opposed to the Republic, where my good friend Dieter and I are rude as mierdâ to each other all the time, and Defencists and Peculiarists swap insults, and it is considered all part of the fun. Erm, wait a minute... I don't think we're rude. We're dissenting every once in a while (or maybe a little bit more often), and we're speaking plain English under such circumstances, but we are not deliberately rude or swapping insults. More later, it's late and therefore time to sleep before the excavators and jackhammers will be back and raging in front of my "den".
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Mar 14, 2012 16:30:57 GMT -6
Pretty much that. The PPT was a mess. Over the course of 2 or 3 Cosa sessions the party descended into complete incoherency. The leaving of Owen Edwards was perhaps the beginning of the end for the PPT. Brenier Tzaracomprada going AWOL soon after made it worse. From there the party ended up with a joint-council-of-inner-leaders ... I don't think that helped. Perhaps the main problem the PPT has is a lack of solid leadership. No offence, just the way I see it. Anyway, after the PPT came crashing down (around the time that T.M. Asmourescu, Gluc da Dhi and myself left the party, maybe a few others) I formed the CSP. The primary reason was merely to distance myself from the sinking PPT ship. If I am to be honest, I am surprised the PPT is hanging on in there. This should read "capable of governing better than a fractured PPT would have and IMO better than an untested MRP". Although, since then, the MRP have highly impressed me. Same here. I too am interested to see where it goes - I'm just waiting to see what happens next. The reason we stand for nothing is because nothing much is happening around here to really disagree with, argue against, etc. At this stage in the events, I am waiting till after reunison to see what issues may arise. NB: Just because I say we stand for nothing does not really mean we stand for nothing. The CSP is the 'play it day-by-day' party.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Mar 14, 2012 16:56:56 GMT -6
But I must say that I have no idea what "conservative" and "progressive" means in the context of Kingdom politics. Is it just like s:reu Earnest seems to think - that it's just a question of what "side" we are on in the politics of the nations where we live? Like in the US, where "conservatives" and "liberals" are more like tribes with duelling customs and idols rather than political movements? In that case, the ZRT - containing an actual Marxist like myself and a Texas conservative like GV - makes no sense. Conservative and Progressive are terms that can be used for a lot of things. In any case, I dont think Talossan politics strongly correlates to politics of other nations. One of the big reasons is obviously the lack of a Talossan economy, which for some reason determines politics in other nations. In any case, the "conservative" rump has both very liberal (in the American sense of the word) and very Conservative members and while most former and current PPT members are left wing, it is not what defines the party. In Talossan politics conservative and progressive are very vague terms. There is some kind of noticable difference in the way conservative and progressive vote in the cosa, but when it comes to elections, suddenly these terms become difficult to define. PPT MCs vote for interesting RUMP bills most of the time, but RUMP MCs and especially conservative Senators (of which there are 4-6 at the moment. 3 senators is enough to boycot any amendment to the orglaw, even with the addition of an 8th province) rarely vote for PPT bills. I think it has something to do with an attitude towards change. For progressives participating in politics starts with thinking about what could be improved in Talossa. Not because they dont like the current situation, but because they think it can be better and also because they are not very afraid things will change in the wrong direction (partly because conservative dont usually propose many radical changes). I think for conservatives participating in politics starts with protecting Talossa from all the changes those silly progressives are proposing. I think these attitudes may partially be driven by the fact that conservatives are the establishment and progressives are not. I think if there would be no progressive opposition the RUMP would fall apart instantly . (ok, maybe a bit too much, but still something to think about. As for the MRPT, both of our members are progressives, but progressivism is not what defines us. We replaced a vague progressive ideology for solid ideas, which include opposing changes we dont agree with. There is a reason we are not the Radically Moderate party, but there is also a reason we are not just the Radical party. The MRPT would also very much like to be part of a coalition, but our ambition is to spread our ideas, not to be in some high function for 8 months and then be forgotten.
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Mar 14, 2012 17:01:38 GMT -6
I too am interested to see where it goes - I'm just waiting to see what happens next. The reason we stand for nothing is because nothing much is happening around here to really disagree with, argue against, etc. At this stage in the events, I am waiting till after reunison to see what issues may arise. NB: Just because I say we stand for nothing does not really mean we stand for nothing. The CSP is the 'play it day-by-day' party. BTW, I just noticed the CSP page on KoT.net I really like it. It filled me with hope for the future of the CSP:)
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Mar 14, 2012 17:25:42 GMT -6
When I was a fresh new Talossan, JP Ventrutx said to me "sometimes you have to sit back and realize that we have a country that runs itself pretty well and change for the sake of change is not needed". I paraphrase slightly. I have always held the view that Talossan Conservatives share JPV's sentiment.
Talossan Conservatives oppose change for the sake of change and Progressives share the opposing view. However, I worry for the future of Talossan Progressivism because for several years (until the recent crumbling of the PPT) the number one Progressive fight has been Reunification with the Republic. After Reunison will Progressives exist? hmmm. That a Tom Stinker Little Thinker.
Is there a clear link between Conservatism and Derivitism? I say no. Is there a clear link between Progressivism and Peculiarism? Again, I reckon not. Some Conservatives can be Peculiar while some are Derivitists and the same applies to Progressives.
Derivitism and Peculiarism, while helping shape politics in Talossa, I do not see as political ideologies. They are more philosophy than politics.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 14, 2012 17:28:40 GMT -6
If by "progressive" you mean "in favour of reforms to the Kingdom's OrgLaw and other laws", then certainly the new post-Republican parties - ZRT and APT - are the most progressive the nation has ever seen. We might actually be too progressive; certainly cxhn. Earnest seems to think so. (The ZRT is definitely a progressive-derivatist party.)
Will the PPT/CSP/MRPT/CRO milieu bring forth a new "moderate" bloc, as distinct from the post-Republican "extreme progressives"? And what will happen to the "progressives who opposed the Republic" bloc. Will they end up in the RUMP?
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Mar 14, 2012 17:37:18 GMT -6
"I'm most interested to find out what will happen to the "progressives who opposed the Republic" bloc. Will they end up in the RUMP?" - Miestrâ Schivâ.
Probably not, considering that the RUMP supports and is working towards reunison.
Technically, Kingdom Progressivism is deader than a dodo.
The PPT has only 2 members. Flip Molinar is 50/50 PPT and CSP and is not die hard on any issue. Istefan Lorentzescu is probably the Kingdom's least political politician and does not like it when things get ungentlemanly.
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Post by Ceváglh Scurznicol on Mar 14, 2012 17:41:31 GMT -6
I suppose in the Republic I was stolidly (or frumpily) conservative, rather like back home in Canada. I hope in the Kingdom the spectrum won’t be as tilted as it is in Oklahoma, where people are so conservative that it makes me a flaming liberal.
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Istefan Perþonest
Cunstaval to Fiôvâ; Regent of the University of Talossa
Posts: 1,024
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
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Post by Istefan Perþonest on Mar 14, 2012 17:50:37 GMT -6
"I'm most interested to find out what will happen to the "progressives who opposed the Republic" bloc. Will they end up in the RUMP?" - Miestrâ Schivâ. Probably not, considering that the RUMP supports and is working towards reunison. Well, there's a niche. Maybe Kane Gruber could form a post-Reunison anti-Reunison party . . .
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 14, 2012 18:01:14 GMT -6
"Save your itrìn banknotes, cüncitaxhiêns - the Republic will secede again!!!"
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Glüc da Dhi
Secretary of State
Posts: 6,112
Talossan Since: 5-14-2009
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Post by Glüc da Dhi on Mar 14, 2012 18:02:11 GMT -6
Since everyone is asking questions, I have a question about which I've been wondering for some time now, but so nobody could really answer. In the chatroom I said I think the MRPT is slightly derivatist. (And also slightly monarchist, and I could add slightly progressive), but I gave that answer just because I feel slightly derivatist. The truth is I dont know, I dont know what Alexandreu thinks and there is not really one point from our current manifesto which I consider to be a really derivatist or peculiarist opinion. Like S:reu Grishun said the derivatist/peculiar question seems to be more philosophical than political. Yet, in the republic (and soon here as well) it is apparently a political division. So my question is, what conclusions do pecularists and derivatist get from their ideology? What would be a very peculiarist and what would be a rather derivatist idea?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Mar 14, 2012 18:16:17 GMT -6
Well, let's put it this way. A Derivatist supports assigning people to provinces based on geography. A Peculiarist supports being able to choose one's own province, and to change it if necessary. A Derivatist likes pomposity and ceremony; a Peculiarist thumbs their nose at it. Deet, would you like to add something?
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Mar 14, 2012 18:27:40 GMT -6
I guess we also have Peculiarist-Pomposity. Those who like the ceremony stuff but thumb their noses at geographical claims and issues.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Mar 14, 2012 18:59:47 GMT -6
I would like to point out here (for any who might not have noticed) that, on an evening when His Majesty the King deigned to make very well-thought-out (and in many cases, humorous) responses on just about every "open" thread on Wittenberg, he made one very conspicuous omission:
He left this thread (the busiest of them all tonight) untouched by his truly, and seriously, out-of-politics-forever-because-he's-the-King-now self...as much as it might pain him to do so — we all know how skilled a politician he was before his elevation to the throne. And, as his friend, I do truly know how keenly he feels the muzzle, and how much he wished it not to be strapped to him (in point of fact, his was the only vote against his enthroning, and it was not pro forma nor was it feigned modesty) but I also know (as we all should) how strongly he feels that it is what is best for this nation, and only what our nation deserves from its King.
We have a political landscape that is open to all. Because we have a Sovereign who loves all his subjects equally.
God Save the King!
Hool
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