Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 8, 2008 12:56:02 GMT -6
I, personally, don't see why we should keep the lines based on States, outside of the fact that it makes assigning people easier. Oh Mick! V thinks your job is too easy!
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 8, 2008 13:04:25 GMT -6
So actually, in terms of just population distribution, and shared culture, as well as shared borders, PA should be part of the middle-eastern bloc. That was one of the major goals of this bill. Capt Asmourescu's counter-point was that Pennsylvania has a significant Italian-American population, which may be why it was assigned to Mussolini/Benito in the first place. Of course, New Jersey and New York have significant Italian-American populations, too. There's no easy solution.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 8, 2008 13:32:33 GMT -6
If we start assigning people by Zip Codes, I quit.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2008 13:39:14 GMT -6
I, personally, don't see why we should keep the lines based on States, outside of the fact that it makes assigning people easier. Oh Mick! V thinks your job is too easy! Yeah, well, if government was meant to be easy, other countries would have elected leaders who can't even pronounce the language... eh.. wait a minute...
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2008 20:39:20 GMT -6
Well, I suppose there are a number of ways to approach it. We could simply redesignate the boundaries along state lines, we could redefine the boundaries along cultural lines as with grouping states that have particular ethnic ties, we could divide by time zones, we could group everyone who likes the same ice cream flavor (where anybody who uses the word "Frogurt" will automatically be assigned to Pengopats). Problem is, because we also close off provinces to immigration to keep their populations balanced, no matter what we do, it is still entirely possible for people to end up in provinces that really make no sense.
Why don't we leave the provincial breakdown as is and simply allow people to move to a different province?
Let's step back from America for a second. What if Dreu's act passes and we get a guy (or gal) from Morocco and then someone else from Spain (which is strangely absent from the list while West Sahara was specified) becomes a citizen. Why not assign them as we presently would and if the citizens from Spain and Morocco want to be in the same province so they can get together and have their own gathering (which I recommend they call "Talossablanca"), then we let one of them move.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 9, 2008 8:32:33 GMT -6
Problem is, because we also close off provinces to immigration to keep their populations balanced, no matter what we do, it is still entirely possible for people to end up in provinces that really make no sense. I agree, and as I have previously argued that the ratio (currently 2 to 1) for closing provinces to immigration should be increased or possibly eliminated. I don't like the idea of letting people change their provincial assignments, though, unless they actually move or possibly (as in current law) if they were assigned to an "unnatural" province due to a previous provincial closing and now want to switch to their "natural" assignment.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2008 10:40:23 GMT -6
So, it has been argued that being that the resident(s) of PA do not wish to move, they shouldn't have to, is there anything in law that states that if citizens of an area wish to switch provinces, they can or can't?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 9, 2008 10:53:32 GMT -6
So, it has been argued that being that the resident(s) of PA do not wish to move, they shouldn't have to, is there anything in law that states that if citizens of an area wish to switch provinces, they can or can't? Under current law, the only reasons you can be assigned to a province other than the one whose zone you live are 1) the province you would normally be assigned to is closed to immigration, or 2) you choose to be assigned to a province where a close relative is already a citizen. I think the definition of "close relative" is far too broad, but that's another issue. Once you are assigned to a province, you can only switch provinces to the province you would normally be assigned to, and only under the following conditions: Whenever any Talossan wants to move his provincial assignment to the province in whose assigned area he actually lives, he may do so, provided that either a) the province to which he is moving has a lower population than the province from which he is moving, or b) both provinces are currently closed to immigration.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2008 14:32:26 GMT -6
Sorry Cresti, I think you misunderstood.
One of the main reasons I'm hearing is that the resident(s) of PA didn't want the state to be switched, so therefore it shouldn't. The question is, if the residents of a state do want their state to be reassigned, are they allowed under current law?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 9, 2008 14:48:43 GMT -6
Ah, guess I did misunderstand. And the answer is no, only the Ziu can decide to change which provincial zone a state or any other territory is assigned to. I do think it's reasonable, though, for the Ziu to give some weight to the opinions of those who already live in the territory in question in making such decisions.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2008 16:38:09 GMT -6
Sorry Cresti, I think you misunderstood. One of the main reasons I'm hearing is that the resident(s) of PA didn't want the state to be switched, so therefore it shouldn't. The question is, if the residents of a state do want their state to be reassigned, are they allowed under current law? I'm afraid you are the one who misunderstood, V. I'm not saying that I oppose this because I do not wish to switch provinces. What I am saying is that switching the Provincial assignment will pose the following issues: 1) If I convince everyone at my high school reunion to apply for citizenship in Talossa after the redistricting, 100 people who live within 5 miles of me will be assigned to a different province than I. 2) If Vuode should be closed off to immigration, those 100 people would get shuffled to provinces that make absolutely no sense. I'm not a big fan of province hopping. However, I have a thought. What if every new immigrant is assigned to the same province? Hear me out. Let's say upon citizenship you are automatically assigned to Benito (or Vuode, whatever, it's an example don't freak out!). A good chunk of people are not active in Provincial politics and their geographic proximity to other folks doesn't matter to them one bit. Why? Because they have no desire to get together with other citizens off the net. So, how do provinces help us? For those of us who are interested in meeting with people and in participating in Provincial politics, allow those folks the opportunity to move to a province of their choosing upon becoming citizens. If they don't choose, they all go to the same province. This would, as you can imagine, make for one big province. However, it could make the others more active in turn. I'm just throwing ideas out here. It seems to me that no matter how we slice up the US, someone will get short changed, whether it is because they are a Pennsylvanian living along the Ohio border where their third cousin twice removed lives just on the other side, or because Capt. Asmourescu recruited a bunch of locals who got shuffled into other provinces due to immigration restrictions. Provinces don't matter to a whole bunch of people. So why drive ourselves nuts trying to cater to them? The provincial system is good, and if we make it a little more user friendly, maybe we can make our provinces more active and resolve this whole territorial issue.
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Flip Molinar
Talossan since 1-1-2008
Proud Talossan
Posts: 1,592
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Post by Flip Molinar on May 10, 2008 12:06:29 GMT -6
These reasons are why I withdrew my original support of this bill and abstained from voting on it one way or another.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2008 13:14:19 GMT -6
I agree, Flip. I think the system needs reworking but I think it goes beyond simply redistricting. Even reassigning the states differently won't really work out any of the problems.
Might I propose that we place more emphasis on common culture rather than geographic proximity?
For example, let someone become a citizen and experience the unique "Flavor" of each province and their citizens and just let people choose one. Limit the ability to switch provinces, but leave the assignment of provincial citizenship to the citizen. Now that's freedom.
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Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on May 10, 2008 13:24:08 GMT -6
Only one problem there:
If I'm a new citizen and I have a choice between a province with 5, inactive people versus a province with 20, active people which am I going to choose? Obviously the one with 20, active. So that other province will not really grow unless one of those 5 becomes active.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 10, 2008 16:22:03 GMT -6
Provinces should be linked to geography, with an eye to a future time. As provinces grow and become closer, I think that we will see an offline growth in provincial community. Cezembre has headed in this direction in spurts for years. It should not be a choice, because then we will inevitably get big clusters of citizens, as Dreu points out. We don't want to have to start eliminating unused provinces and merging them into used ones for lack of participation, just because they weren't cool.
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