Post by Dréu Gavárþic'h on Feb 11, 2008 18:32:02 GMT -6
So, I'm now a CUG member (sorta) - wahoo! Talossan is a cool Romance language! Or is it...
Talossan embodies many Romantic ideas but essentially ignores some extremely important ones, mostly because its creator did not have the capability to understand some major points of the Romance languages, mostly because they cannot really be expressed in English.
The subjunctive mood must be addressed. Ben's choice to combine the subjunctive and conditional (which he even says is un-Romance) can be seen here:
To me, the subjunctive is one of the essential items that Romance languages posses and, without it, you really can't call that language a Romance language.\
The only three uses that the "conditional tense" is marked down for in the Scurznia:
When the subjunctive has many, many, many more uses then this. It can be used for believing, desiring, in impersonal expressions, wishes, with subjunctive triggers, etc. We are only tapping into a very small portion of what the subjunctive has to offer to us.
Therefore, I offer to the CÚG the following proposals to be discussed, dissected, and ridiculed:
A. SUBJUNCTIVE USE REFORM. There is much to address here. We must try to maintain tradition, but at the same time enforce the markers of the Talossan language. This section will only entail how the subjunctive will be used, excluding triggers and such.
A1. Subjunctive clauses shall almost always (with the exception of if clauses, "would clauses," and some of the stock phrases be introduced by the conjunction "qe." Without that "qe" the clause cannot be subjunctive and therefore may take on a completely different meaning.
A2. Verbs of belief (credarh, crezitarh, aceptarh, açeitarh, aðmiçarh, etc.) and sometimes verbs of trust, in accordance with the Italic view of the subjunctive, where positive believing can introduce a subjunctive clause as opposed to the French and Spanish where it cannot, (when the subject is trusting that something will happen it should take a "qe" and introduce a subjunctive clause, but when it is something as simple as "I trust you" there should be no qe and there is no subjunctive clause anyway) (trustarh, aßumarh, etc.) + qe should introduce subjunctive clauses.
Ex.1
Credéu qe las moscas menxhadrent els elefunts.
I believe (but I don't know for sure) that flies eat elephants.
Ex.2
Aßuméu qe non mortadréu.
I assume that you will not die.
A3. Verbs of Wishing, Desire, and Hope (cherarh, desirarh, esperarh, etc. should take a "qe" and then introduce the subjunctive.
Ex. 3
Esperéu qe o non auscultadra.
I hope that he doesn't die.
A4a. Verbs of Doubt (duvitarh) should take the qe and then be followed by a subjunctive clause.
Ex. 4
Duvitéu qe o auscultadra
I doubt that he will die
A4b. Verbs of No Doubt (non duvitarh) should not take the subjunctive, but rather, the indicative, as they expressing "no doubt" and the subjunctive is all about doubt.
Ex. 5
Non duvitéu qe o moartarha.
I don't doubt that he will die.
A5a. Impersonal expressions (it's important that, it's necessary that) for the most part should take a "qe" and then the subjunctive should follow.
Ex. 6
C'e neceßar qe parladretz.
It's necessary that y'all speak.
A5b. Some impersonal expressions that contain no doubt (It's true that, It's certain that) should not take a subjunctive clause, but instead should take the indicative.
Ex. 7
C'e vräts qe isch vivind.
It's ture that he is alive.
A6. The use of the subjunctive (without the "qe") in the "if" clauses, as a conditional, and in those stock phrases shall continue.
B. SUBJUNCTIVE NON-VERB TRIGGERS
B1. All subjunctive "triggers" take a qe.
B2. The subjunctive triggers are:
-avant qe
-in cauça qe
-svo að qe
-quand (used non-habitually)
-salva qe
-províut qe
B3. These triggers are meant to be used with the subjunctive, however, they can all be used with the indicative as well.
Ex. 8
Fostás büvarh la lapta svo að qe tenadrás osvas salüvas.
(when you get the chance) You should drink milk in order to have healthy bones.
Ex. 9
Fostás büvarh la lapta svo að tent osvas salüvas.
You should drink milk (every day) so that you'll have healthy bones.
So the indicative gives you more habitual ideas, while the subjunctive offers one time actions that may or may not happen.
Respectfully submitted,
Alexandreu Gavárþic'h
Talossan embodies many Romantic ideas but essentially ignores some extremely important ones, mostly because its creator did not have the capability to understand some major points of the Romance languages, mostly because they cannot really be expressed in English.
The subjunctive mood must be addressed. Ben's choice to combine the subjunctive and conditional (which he even says is un-Romance) can be seen here:
The "conditional tense" is Talossan's most 'un-Romance' tense, having completely ousted the Latin or French Subjunctive mood (which Talossan lacks), leaving Talossan with foru basic tenses--past, present, future, conditional--closer to Russian or Esperanto than to French. (Madison, 58)
To me, the subjunctive is one of the essential items that Romance languages posses and, without it, you really can't call that language a Romance language.\
The only three uses that the "conditional tense" is marked down for in the Scurznia:
- If clauses
- The translation of "would"
- In a few "stock phrases"
When the subjunctive has many, many, many more uses then this. It can be used for believing, desiring, in impersonal expressions, wishes, with subjunctive triggers, etc. We are only tapping into a very small portion of what the subjunctive has to offer to us.
Therefore, I offer to the CÚG the following proposals to be discussed, dissected, and ridiculed:
A. SUBJUNCTIVE USE REFORM. There is much to address here. We must try to maintain tradition, but at the same time enforce the markers of the Talossan language. This section will only entail how the subjunctive will be used, excluding triggers and such.
A1. Subjunctive clauses shall almost always (with the exception of if clauses, "would clauses," and some of the stock phrases be introduced by the conjunction "qe." Without that "qe" the clause cannot be subjunctive and therefore may take on a completely different meaning.
A2. Verbs of belief (credarh, crezitarh, aceptarh, açeitarh, aðmiçarh, etc.) and sometimes verbs of trust, in accordance with the Italic view of the subjunctive, where positive believing can introduce a subjunctive clause as opposed to the French and Spanish where it cannot, (when the subject is trusting that something will happen it should take a "qe" and introduce a subjunctive clause, but when it is something as simple as "I trust you" there should be no qe and there is no subjunctive clause anyway) (trustarh, aßumarh, etc.) + qe should introduce subjunctive clauses.
Ex.1
Credéu qe las moscas menxhadrent els elefunts.
I believe (but I don't know for sure) that flies eat elephants.
Ex.2
Aßuméu qe non mortadréu.
I assume that you will not die.
A3. Verbs of Wishing, Desire, and Hope (cherarh, desirarh, esperarh, etc. should take a "qe" and then introduce the subjunctive.
Ex. 3
Esperéu qe o non auscultadra.
I hope that he doesn't die.
A4a. Verbs of Doubt (duvitarh) should take the qe and then be followed by a subjunctive clause.
Ex. 4
Duvitéu qe o auscultadra
I doubt that he will die
A4b. Verbs of No Doubt (non duvitarh) should not take the subjunctive, but rather, the indicative, as they expressing "no doubt" and the subjunctive is all about doubt.
Ex. 5
Non duvitéu qe o moartarha.
I don't doubt that he will die.
A5a. Impersonal expressions (it's important that, it's necessary that) for the most part should take a "qe" and then the subjunctive should follow.
Ex. 6
C'e neceßar qe parladretz.
It's necessary that y'all speak.
A5b. Some impersonal expressions that contain no doubt (It's true that, It's certain that) should not take a subjunctive clause, but instead should take the indicative.
Ex. 7
C'e vräts qe isch vivind.
It's ture that he is alive.
A6. The use of the subjunctive (without the "qe") in the "if" clauses, as a conditional, and in those stock phrases shall continue.
B. SUBJUNCTIVE NON-VERB TRIGGERS
B1. All subjunctive "triggers" take a qe.
B2. The subjunctive triggers are:
-avant qe
-in cauça qe
-svo að qe
-quand (used non-habitually)
-salva qe
-províut qe
B3. These triggers are meant to be used with the subjunctive, however, they can all be used with the indicative as well.
Ex. 8
Fostás büvarh la lapta svo að qe tenadrás osvas salüvas.
(when you get the chance) You should drink milk in order to have healthy bones.
Ex. 9
Fostás büvarh la lapta svo að tent osvas salüvas.
You should drink milk (every day) so that you'll have healthy bones.
So the indicative gives you more habitual ideas, while the subjunctive offers one time actions that may or may not happen.
Respectfully submitted,
Alexandreu Gavárþic'h