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Post by Béneditsch Ardpresteir, O.SPM. on Dec 18, 2019 2:39:47 GMT -6
It's really sad to be living in a world with thousands of liars. Freddie Mercury made a bunch of albums under a false name. Mark Twain wrote a bunch of books under a false name. And Banksy... what a lying jerk. Filling the world with art. Who the hell is she? He? bell hooks. Garry Kasparov. Titian. Peyo. Ayn Rand. Elizabeth Arden. Bernard Shakey. El Greco. John le Carré. Voltaire. And then there's Yusuf Islam, or Cat Stevens, or Stephen Georgiou, or whoever he really is under his multiple identities. Creeps. The world would've been better off without them and their fraudulent contributions. Oh, and Dr. Seuss. Nefariousness at its worst. Messing with the minds of children. I didnt realize we had such an extensive list of Talossans going all the way back to Voltaire. Wow. But really, did Dr. Seuss apply for immigration to another country using his pen name? Here's the reality-our law is pretty clear that you must provide your real name on the citizenship application. You decided not to. No matter how you want to spin that, you lied and broke Talossan law. You're ostensibly lucking out with a judge who doesn't care about the plain text of the law. So fantastic job at breaking Talossan law and then rendering our law absolutely meaningless. All of your good work for Talossa has culminated in you establishing that a judge can legislate from the bench in Talossa. THANKS I don't know how others would feel, but I agree with Senator V on this score. Plus, if a judge had to pass his Orders based on personal instances and anecdotes, then that Order is not based on precedence as a source of law, and is subject to be modified/ set aside by other competant judges who do not have any personal bias. (I use the word bias for failing to find a suitable synonym. If it comes to my mind, then the word might be edited). BenArd
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Dec 18, 2019 6:32:22 GMT -6
For the literalists picking over my post, how many real countries trot out their prospectives in front of the local townsfolk for judging?
Where exactly on the immigration application do we say that their real name, age, and location, and bio will be posted on the web?
No-one should trust Talossa with their data. It's not responsible nor transparent in how it is used. In fact, the form draws people in by portraying the process as simple and fun as a Monty Python sketch.
That's deceit.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Dec 18, 2019 7:44:47 GMT -6
I’ve stayed quiet and kept my thoughts to myself in the event that I would be called upon to render judgement in this case. The senator broke our laws. Was it inadvertent? Maybe. Does it matter if you accidentally break a law? No. I will not address the ruling from my colleague on the UC except to say I disagree.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Dec 18, 2019 8:46:48 GMT -6
For the literalists picking over my post, how many real countries trot out their prospectives in front of the local townsfolk for judging? Where exactly on the immigration application do we say that their real name, age, and location, and bio will be posted on the web? No-one should trust Talossa with their data. It's not responsible nor transparent in how it is used. In fact, the form draws people in by portraying the process as simple and fun as a Monty Python sketch. That's deceit. The citizenship application has a jokey first part, but the second part is very clear and matter-of-fact. The text under the part asking for your name says (emphasis mine): You were loathe to give out your real name and contact info. That's fine. But you can't lie about it, wait until you get caught years later, and then act wounded that anyone thinks it was wrong or pretend that you just didn't know.
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Dec 18, 2019 9:49:42 GMT -6
and then act wounded that anyone thinks it was wrong or pretend that you just didn't know. No need to be condescending.
Nothing about your quote addresses the fact that applicant's personal information is posted where it can read, but the applicant is not informed of this prior to submitting it.
A reasonable person would assume that their information would be utilized by the government for their own internal process, not that it would be published on a forum.
The informed consent in the immigration form as written extends only to right of collection, but not right to disclosure. Talossa is breaching privacy in each case it publishes the personal information of each applicant.
No one should trust us.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Dec 18, 2019 10:24:30 GMT -6
and then act wounded that anyone thinks it was wrong or pretend that you just didn't know. No need to be condescending.
Nothing about your quote addresses the fact that applicant's personal information is posted where it can read, but the applicant is not informed of this prior to submitting it.
A reasonable person would assume that their information would be utilized by the government for their own internal process, not that it would be published on a forum.
The informed consent in the immigration form as written extends only to right of collection, but not right to disclosure. Talossa is breaching privacy in each case it publishes the personal information of each applicant.
No one should trust us.
This is not the case. After the Interior Ministry receives an application, it sends a message that reads in part: So, we notify the immigrant of the fact that we will post their information on the forum if they register an account, before they are instructed to make the account. If they don’t want us to do that, then they don’t have to continue with the process and their info won’t be posted.
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Post by Sevastáin Pinátsch on Dec 18, 2019 10:48:38 GMT -6
So, we notify the immigrant of the fact that we will post their information on the forum if they register an account, before they are instructed to make the account. If they don’t want us to do that, then they don’t have to continue with the process and their info won’t be posted. If the idea is that their personal information will be posted on the forum as a condition of processing and acceptance, they should have that information up front. In at least some cases, people would declined to disclose their information in the first place, and they deserve that option as opposed to a bait and switch of terms and conditions.
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Açafat del Val
Citizen of Talossa
Posts: 112
Talossan Since: 10-15-2017
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Post by Açafat del Val on Dec 18, 2019 11:33:10 GMT -6
and then act wounded that anyone thinks it was wrong or pretend that you just didn't know. No need to be condescending.
Nothing about your quote addresses the fact that applicant's personal information is posted where it can read, but the applicant is not informed of this prior to submitting it.
A reasonable person would assume that their information would be utilized by the government for their own internal process, not that it would be published on a forum.
The informed consent in the immigration form as written extends only to right of collection, but not right to disclosure. Talossa is breaching privacy in each case it publishes the personal information of each applicant. It sounds like you, as a Senator, should put a bill in the hopper or suggest an amendment to a bill which would require this disclosure, then. It's a good idea and I would support it. May I ask frankly? If no one should trust us, then why are you even a Senator? Why would you not only desire to immigrate to but also decide to remain in and no less continue to serve a nation which you don't trust, or at least say shouldn't be trusted? This baffles the hell out of me. If Talossa is so vile, corrupt, inept, or otherwise not worthy of trust, then why have you committed so much time and energy to it? Perhaps because... Talosa is a trustworthy place? Or do you simply think that this is a one-way street? Why do you deserve to reap all the benefits, privileges, and rights offered by Talossa while in return the country gets only what you graciously and unilaterally deem sufficient? That's not just a toxic and abusive relationship, sir: it's also not now citizenship works, whether for Talossa or Canada. So, we notify the immigrant of the fact that we will post their information on the forum if they register an account, before they are instructed to make the account. If they don’t want us to do that, then they don’t have to continue with the process and their info won’t be posted. If the idea is that their personal information will be posted on the forum as a condition of processing and acceptance, they should have that information up front. In at least some cases, people would declined to disclose their information in the first place, and they deserve that option as opposed to a bait and switch of terms and conditions. I reiterate here that you make a good suggestion, and perhaps we very well SHOULD disclose on the application, before even it is submitted, that the data will be kept and in very specific situations disclosed! However, I also want to point out the irony that you're so offended by this ineptitude yet have continued to stick around for all these years and even serve as a Senator. Surely, if this were a dealbreaker for you, you would not have stood for election to the Senäts? Surely, if this policy were such an offense, you would have sooner suggested these changes or LEFT THE COUNTRY before your fraud was discovered? Sevastáin Pinátsch , I hardly know you and am even less aware of all the work which you have undertaken for Talossa, but your overall reaction to this event is and has been underhanded, selfish, and misdirected. If you truly care about Talossa - moreover, if you truly actually really sincerely genuinely believe that this country is worthy of your past efforts and sacrifices, and that those efforts should not have been done in vain - may I suggest that, instead of scapegoating and finger-pointing and projecting and deflecting, you seek to make amends? Someone who (a) cares about the country, (b) wishes to serve it dutifully, and (c) values his friendships resolves always to apologize, make everything whole, work to prevent a repeat of the offense and, above all else, be both gracious and humble. It is possible to disagree with a policy at the same time as recognizing one's own failures. All these are the acts of a mature, wise, and loyal public servant. You have done none of these things up to this point, but I hope that you might reverse course. Your service, your accomplishments, and your friends deserve as much.
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Dec 18, 2019 11:36:37 GMT -6
and then act wounded that anyone thinks it was wrong or pretend that you just didn't know. No need to be condescending.
Nothing about your quote addresses the fact that applicant's personal information is posted where it can read, but the applicant is not informed of this prior to submitting it.
A reasonable person would assume that their information would be utilized by the government for their own internal process, not that it would be published on a forum.
The informed consent in the immigration form as written extends only to right of collection, but not right to disclosure. Talossa is breaching privacy in each case it publishes the personal information of each applicant.
No one should trust us.
Not true. I reapplied for citizenship on August 13, 2016. Ian Anglatzara emailed me noting an obvious error on my form--my birthday! I had accidentally filled in the date of the application (obviously I was not born on that date, although I'm sure there's a snarky comment somewhere to suggest otherwise). I provided my proper birthday in response. After I recreated my account, I sent the following email: I created an account using my old name. Is is possible that my surname not be publicly posted on Witt? I have certain ethical obligations." The ethical obligations concerned a position I had at that moment and where I was applying for employment post-graduation. Both my externship and the (then-hopeful) positions to which I applied precluded me from sharing political leanings that could be traced back to my work. Ian had no issue accommodating my request (his response: "Sure, we know your surname, no need to have it out in the (semi-) open"). The immigration post listed my name as "Vito John M." ( click here for post). Literally no one mentioned it in the subsequent discussion. I kept my name confidential until about March 2019, well after I completed my post-graduate clerkship and went into private practice. But Talossa respected my privacy on the matter. It actually never came up. I share this because it is entirely possible to request that certain required information be redacted. Your claim that the informed consent only extends to the right of collection is misplaced for several reasons. AD is correct that your full and actual given name is required. Contrary to the cort's nonsensical, pseudo-existentialist "what is a name" analysis, there are other fields that cover the various names an applicant may go by: "What do your friends call you" and "What other names/aliases do you use in Internet-related activity." It is patent that we value some ability to verify you are who you say you are. There are three separate fields for names: your actual (legal) name; what your friends call you; and what other names/aliases you use. The form notes other required information: gender, birthday, mailing address, telephone number, and email. Under the telephone number field, it states the following: "Your mailing address (except for the city) and telephone number will be kept confidential, but are required information." Under the email address field, it says the following: "As with your mailing address, unless you request otherwise, your e-mail address will be kept confidential, for government use only." The form also allows an applicant to provide optional information: Facebook URL, GoogleTalk/GChat ID, etc. The form notes the following: "This information is optional, however, and, like your other contact information, will not be published without your permission, although (unless you request otherwise) you may be invited by members of the government into groups and conversations even before gaining full citizenship." Based on the foregoing, a reasonable person understands that the information non-confidential is subject to publication. Confidential information is obviously that which requires the applicant's permission for the Government to publish. Your name is not identified as confidential information. However, as illustrated by my experience, an applicant can request that part of their name (or, I'd wager, if they do provide their proper name and a name they generally use elsewhere, their full legal name) be redacted from publication. Hence, the informed consent extends beyond the right of collection to the right of disclosure for that information not deemed confidential. An applicant's name is not confidential, but an applicant can request reasonable accommodation. Talossa is not breaching an applicant's privacy in each case that it publishes non-confidential information. Look, for what it's worth, I'm not unsympathetic to an applicant's desire to keep certain information from public view (including the applicant's legal name). But we must weigh this against Talossa's interest in verifying that an applicant is who they say they are. Talossa does not require that an applicant furnish verification (e.g. an identification card), but has chosen to extend its trust to complete strangers to be forthcoming and honest when submitting an immigration application. In exchange for the instant trust, Talossa places a legal duty of candor on the applicant because Talossa assumes an applicant's veracity at face value. Talossa presumes that an applicant matches the trust that Talossa places in the applicant through honest and accurate representations on an immigration application. Essentially, we trust the applicant to be honest, and, in turn, the applicant must trust us to not abuse that information. The issue here is: your fallacious disclosure broke the law and abused Talossa's trust. For what it's worth, I am open to including explicit language in the immigration form that, upon request, an applicant may request that, when publish, Talossa redact certain non-confidential information. As it relates to a full legal name, partial redaction or, if a "street name" or "alias" is given, full redaction. But I get the impression that this would have been insufficient for you. An instance such as yours, in my estimation, undermines the trust that Talossa places in applicants that they provide accurate and proper information. It's a quid pro quo--we trust you and you trust us. Tellingly, you became a citizen on February 19, 2014, right before the scandal and criminal matter surrounding ESB. At the very minimum, you knew then that Talossa greatly values an applicant's candor because that honesty is how we verify applicants; you knew the legal requirements for applicants and knew that you had violated those requirements. Sev, you and I do not see eye to eye on a lot of things. You have contributed tremendously to Talossa. That does not absolve you of breaching the collective trust of Talossa, and breaking its law, at inception. And I certainly do not want to see this one mishap tarnish your many contributions and work. You could have requested that Talossa withhold your full legal name from Witt (as I did). But you did not. You took it upon yourself to do that and, accordingly, lied to Talossa and breached Talossan law. Truly, I hope that you take a day or two to reflect on the situation and maybe approach it from a different perspective. I am not gambling person, but I dare wager that, at the outset of this, the universal response from everyone who agrees that you violated the law is that the most lenient punishment should be imposed. Nobody is seeking retribution. Nobody is saying that you needed to provide your full name to everyone. What many of us are saying is simple, "Sev messed up, and we need to make sure our laws are followed. But the facts of this case do not warrant a severe punishment." You digging your heals in is blowing this up beyond what it needs to be. I'm certain that if you took a different approach, this entire issue can be quickly resolved and many of us will move on.
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Ian Plätschisch
Senator for Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Posts: 4,001
Talossan Since: 3-21-2015
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Post by Ian Plätschisch on Dec 18, 2019 11:39:14 GMT -6
So, we notify the immigrant of the fact that we will post their information on the forum if they register an account, before they are instructed to make the account. If they don’t want us to do that, then they don’t have to continue with the process and their info won’t be posted. If the idea is that their personal information will be posted on the forum as a condition of processing and acceptance, they should have that information up front. In at least some cases, people would declined to disclose their information in the first place, and they deserve that option as opposed to a bait and switch of terms and conditions. It’s not a bait and switch; I’m not sure how people think they could immigrate without us posting anything about them on the forum. We never say we are going to keep the information completely private, and the way in which we subsequently share it is fairly common sense (ie, address and contact info removed, and the immigration board is private). It wouldn’t be bad idea to specify this on the website, but in my several years of handling immigration I never had any concerns from prospective citizens about how we handled privacy.
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Açafat del Val
Citizen of Talossa
Posts: 112
Talossan Since: 10-15-2017
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Post by Açafat del Val on Dec 18, 2019 12:03:33 GMT -6
[Redacted to prevent walls of text.] All of this is very much micked, especially the point that no one is seeking retribution and all of us would like only a confession and for it the most lenient punishment.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Dec 18, 2019 13:13:27 GMT -6
and then act wounded that anyone thinks it was wrong or pretend that you just didn't know. No need to be condescending.
Nothing about your quote addresses the fact that applicant's personal information is posted where it can read, but the applicant is not informed of this prior to submitting it.
A reasonable person would assume that their information would be utilized by the government for their own internal process, not that it would be published on a forum.
The informed consent in the immigration form as written extends only to right of collection, but not right to disclosure. Talossa is breaching privacy in each case it publishes the personal information of each applicant. No one should trust us.
See, I think my tone is perfectly appropriate since you're treating us like we're idiots. You were asked your real name. You knew you were being asked your real name. You gave a fake name instead. No one thinks you were crazy for doing that or even thinks it was a huge crime. But it's insulting for you to pretend that you didn't intentionally do something you knew you weren't supposed to do, even if your motivation was reasonable. You tried to get away with something and you got caught, and now you're pretending that you were somehow misled or that pseudonyms like Cher are real names or that it was civil disobedience -- or whatever the justification of the moment might be. This thing is blowing up into something silly because you're too proud to just apologize (plus the... um, creative ruling of the Cort, which is not your fault).
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 18, 2019 14:52:08 GMT -6
If Talossa is so vile, corrupt, inept, or otherwise not worthy of trust, then why have you committed so much time and energy to it? Perhaps because... Talosa is a trustworthy place? Or because Talossa is a great big roleplaying game where nothing really matters, lol. However, can I ask that we refrain from "if you don't like it, leave" rhetoric aimed towards Senator Guy Incognito? The Government agonized over these proceedings because of the defendant's threat he'd simply renounce if his "real actual name" were revealed. We don't want him gone given his track record of service. True, he's saying some oddball and confrontational things right now, but if being oddball and confrontational were unTalossan I wouldn't be here. I should note right now, though, that Sev's rhetoric has shifted from "stage names = real names" to "Talossa's data is not secure". It seems clear that Seb isn't content to be on the track for legal exoneration; he wants his actions to be publicly accepted.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Dec 18, 2019 15:00:41 GMT -6
All of this is very much micked, especially the point that no one is seeking retribution and all of us would like only a confession and for it the most lenient punishment. To be fair, he's confessed, hasn't he? The only issue is that he thinks he did nothing wrong (and the Cort is currently inclined to agree).
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Post by E.S. Bornatfiglheu on Dec 18, 2019 15:05:45 GMT -6
If Talossa is so vile, corrupt, inept, or otherwise not worthy of trust, then why have you committed so much time and energy to it? Perhaps because... Talosa is a trustworthy place? Or because Talossa is a great big roleplaying game where nothing really matters, lol. This kind of mischaracterization is just as bad as "love it or leave" rhetoric.
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