Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 30, 2019 18:36:12 GMT -6
- In Talossan jurisprudence as now established, legal language is like computer code. Intention doesn't matter - you must do precisely as the law instructs in detail, no "substantively" or "that was my intention", or it's invalid. Therefore, please people, listen to legal experts when they tell you how to word things. No "spicing things up", lol. But more seriously - this has given a huge boost to the legal profession in this country, as ordinary citizens using ordinary language will not be given any leeway by the CpI.
- If the Cort wants the F-F merger to go back to the beginning, it has established several precedents:
1) that it is effective for the King to get his own way with the elected Government, not by communicating his problems with them and seeking a solution, but by "parachuting in" with last-minute legal challenges; and therefore that the King is authorised to act independently and politically from the elected Government;
2) that last-minute legal challenges - or indeed, legal challenges which are timed for the element of surprise, rather than fairness - are perfectly okay, no matter the burden complying with them;
3) that we desperately need judicial reform to set procedures for the CpI, because when Justices are forced to make it up as they go along, I don't think it ends well.
- that you're not likely to win a case if your Attorney quits halfway through because someone annoyed him, your replacement Attorney is left playing catchup and not given time by the Cort to get on his feet;
- The Florencia-Fiova merger will happen - or at least the merger constitution will be put to the people of the two provinces in referendum, as 53RZ1 foresees. And we will be extra-specially-OCD-anal-retentive careful with the legalities this time, so that if the King wants to get in the way of a popular initiative just because he doesn't like it - or because he wants to assert territorial dominance over the elected government - he will have to say so openly and campaign for it, rather than hide behind legalities.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 30, 2019 19:45:53 GMT -6
It is really important to follow the law, and all the more so when you are exerting power. It might be inconvenient, but the rule of law is one of those fragile things that protects the powerless from the powerful.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 30, 2019 20:36:00 GMT -6
It is really important to follow the law, and all the more so when you are exerting power. It might be inconvenient, but the rule of law is one of those fragile things that protects the powerless from the powerful. And red tape (shall we say in Talossa "green-and-red tape"?) is one of those things which kills Talossanity. By which I mean, not the rule of law itself, but an overemphasis on the letter rather than the spirit of the law, which means that those untrained in legal language cannot do anything politically or lawfully without invalidating their own intentions by accident. Spencer Kerfoot thought he was following the law and didn't realise that, under current conditions, statutory language is like computer code. Under such circumstances, if you want to do anything or change anything in Talossa, you'd better be a qualified lawyer, or have one on your side. I mentioned elsewhere the classical English legal distinction between common law and equity. I think we need a damn sight more equity in Talossan jurisprudence; that "substantive compliance" and intention should be taken into account against the letter of the law. Also, the fact that under AD's construction, "the powerless" is the goddamned King of Talossa, and "the powerful" is an extremely part-time Florencian provincial legislator. Talk about DARVO.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 30, 2019 20:51:33 GMT -6
If you believe that there are laws that cannot be understood by most people, you should fix that -- or ask someone else to fix it. The solution is not to ignore laws that you find inconvenient to follow.
And D:na Seneschal... do you not realize that you are the powerful, here? You're the head of government, upset that you must follow the law and delay the referendum you announced. But if our leaders are able to do as they please, regardless of the law, then there's little protection for the powerless -- aka the citizens of Florencia, who voted for a constitution.
Plus, aren't you going to feel silly if this sails through the Nimlet with an actual vote in a week, and all this fuss about some silly judge's insistence on following the law turned out to be a momentary delay?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 30, 2019 20:53:06 GMT -6
Incidentally, I wrote this: It is really important to follow the law, and all the more so when you are exerting power. It might be inconvenient, but the rule of law is one of those fragile things that protects the powerless from the powerful. And in return, you compared me to a rapist. Also, the fact that under AD's construction, "the powerless" is the goddamned King of Talossa, and "the powerful" is an extremely part-time Florencian provincial legislator. Talk about DARVO. That's pretty messed up.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 30, 2019 20:57:39 GMT -6
If you believe that there are laws that cannot be understood by most people, you should fix that Believe me, don't tempt me to suggest repealing all Talossan law and starting from a tabula rasa. There are decades of bad law in this Kingdom and the only way we've muddled through is at the whim of various Corts. I'm increasingly convinced you have no idea of the doctrine of equity, which is part of Anglo-American legal tradition. Against the King? With his significant national veto and his absolute provincial veto? Firstly, the Nimlet has a two-week minimum for resolutions. Secondly, I have no confidence that the Governor (who is extremely part-time) will be available to "sign and deliver" the resolution to the Constable in any sensible time frame. In fact, given current Court ruling, an argument could be made that he would to print it out, physically sign it and mail it to John. You see how silly it gets if you insist on the letter of badly written laws. Thirdly, I am increasingly convinced that the King-Constable will just veto it - and the Florencian Constable's veto is absolute. You see, despite your covering for him, I don't think this is about the legalities at all. I think it's about the King just doesn't want the Merger; and/or he wants to slap the elected Government in the face and show us who's boss. It seems likely to me the will of the Florencian people will simply not even ever be asked for, because the King-Constable will veto any merger constitution put to him, and there ain't a damn thing anyone can do about it, until he changes his mind. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never gone wrong overestimating just how sneaky Talossan politics can get and in what bad faith my opponents can act. Abuser/gaslighter behavior comes on a spectrum, on which physical and sexual assault are the extreme, but it starts with trolling, needling and disingenuity.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 30, 2019 21:13:15 GMT -6
Believe me, don't tempt me to suggest repealing all Talossan law and starting from a tabula rasa. There are decades of bad law in this Kingdom and the only way we've muddled through is at the whim of various Corts. I'm honestly curious... would you mind copying and pasting something from el Lexhatx (http://wiki.talossa.com/Law:El_Lexhatx) that you don't understand? I know the law pretty well, and while it's not perfect, it's mostly pretty easy to figure out. Maybe Title D, which is pretty complicated? Against the King? With his significant national veto and his absolute provincial veto? ...yes? You have way more power than him. He has no ability to make law, for example. His veto can be superseded with 2/3 majority -- that just happened, remember? -- or by a simple majority after a few months' time. And he cannot set any policies about pretty much anything. D:na Seneschal, you can write new laws at a whim, and you only need to convince one person to sign off on them! That one person is the check on that power, but no one else can do that. No one else has power that even comes close to that. Secondly, I have no confidence that the Governor (who is extremely part-time) will be available to "sign and deliver" the resolution to the Constable in any sensible time frame. If the Governor opposes this, then isn't that the business of Florencia to sort out? I think it's about the King just doesn't want the Merger; and/or he wants to slap the elected Government in the face and show us who's boss. It seems likely to me the will of the Florencian people will simply not even ever be asked for, because the King-Constable will veto any merger constitution put to him, and there ain't a damn thing anyone can do about it, until he changes his mind. I can't speak to hypotheticals or your imaginings. His Majesty has repeatedly accepted new limits on his legal authority, albeit not all and often not quietly.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 30, 2019 21:21:15 GMT -6
]I'm honestly curious... would you mind copying and pasting something from el Lexhatx (http://wiki.talossa.com/Law:El_Lexhatx) that you don't understand? This is part of the DARVO schema - you're making it about me, your political enemy, instead of Spencer Kerfoot, a provincial legislator who didn't understand the Constitution of Florencia. Ha ha, if I did, Talossa would be a Republic by now. This is one of those situations where I can't decide whether you're ignorant or trolling. Governor Colonel Mximo Carbonèl has supported the merger on several occasions. He voted for it (belatedly). It was his idea in the first place, I'm pretty sure. But he's just not around very much, and English is his second language. (Ask a non-Anglophone how well they understand Organic and Statute Law, by the way.)
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Jul 30, 2019 21:36:12 GMT -6
This is part of the DARVO schema - you're making it about me, your political enemy, instead of Spencer Kerfoot, a provincial legislator who didn't understand the Constitution of Florencia. It's super uncool to keep comparing me to a rapist because we have a polite disagreement about a matter of honestly-held principle. But you were speaking your opinion about the laws in general, which is why I said that. Go back and read your post. Ha ha, if I did, Talossa would be a Republic by now. Having the most power doesn't equate to unlimited power in a constitutional democracy like ours, fortunately. Governor Colonel Mximo Carbonèl has supported the merger on several occasions. He voted for it (belatedly). It was his idea in the first place, I'm pretty sure. But he's just not around very much, and English is his second language. Still seems like something that's their business? I don't know, I don't know Florencia very well at all (seldom read provincial forums outside of my own). Surely if they want this to happen as a populace, it will happen -- their Governor has to swing back around sometime, right? (Ask a non-Anglophone how well they understand Organic and Statute Law, by the way.) Since our laws are written in English, probably not as well as their native tongue. What do you mean?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 30, 2019 21:46:27 GMT -6
Since our laws are written in English, probably not as well as their native tongue. What do you mean? I mean, that during all the time I've been in Talossa, this has been a place where native English speakers are a majority but many of our most active politicians and cultural activists have been of other mother tongues. I have long believed that our Law should be not be written in "Anglo-American legalese", but in language clear and simple enough that someone with - say - a CEFL B2 level of competency in English should be able to participate fully in Talossan political life. I'm not sure whether you're aware yet, but the Ladîntsch Naziunál is working on a translation of El Lexhatx to go with an updated translation of the OrgLaw. In a way, I'm kind of hoping that the Talossan-language text of our law will be clearer, because "concentrated", than the English version. We don't have any provision yet to declare whether the English or Talossan version of the law is authoritative, I think... yet.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Jul 30, 2019 21:58:55 GMT -6
I'd have to make up any technical terms myself. As such, I've taken to making (admittedly large) changes to syntax to accommodate Talossan's relatively simplistic vocabulary.
In other words, it'll be easier to read, but it won't be a direct translation of the English version.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jul 30, 2019 22:04:55 GMT -6
I'd have to make up any technical terms myself. As such, I've taken to making (admittedly large) changes to syntax to accommodate Talossan's relatively simplistic vocabulary. In other words, it'll be easier to read, but it won't be a direct translation of the English version. Hmmm, so maybe we will have to bring in a law saying "the English version is primary"?
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Jul 30, 2019 22:05:27 GMT -6
Also, el Lexhatx is 35,000 words long. If I were to translate 1,000 words a day (which I can't), it'd still take over a month.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on Jul 30, 2019 22:07:29 GMT -6
I'd have to make up any technical terms myself. As such, I've taken to making (admittedly large) changes to syntax to accommodate Talossan's relatively simplistic vocabulary. In other words, it'll be easier to read, but it won't be a direct translation of the English version. Hmmm, so maybe we will have to bring in a law saying "the English version is primary"? I'm not going to delve into that rabbit hole beyond saying that I'd consider it an ample reward for my efforts if the updated parts of the Talossan + new, untranslared changes to the English were considered the "primary" version.
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Post by Viteu Marcianüs on Jul 31, 2019 4:31:55 GMT -6
It is really important to follow the law, and all the more so when you are exerting power. It might be inconvenient, but the rule of law is one of those fragile things that protects the powerless from the powerful. Define "Rule of Law" for me please. I'll give you a hint, DARVO Davinescu, Miestra is not talking about the rule of law, she's talking about judicial precedent. Things like "substantial compliance" and "irreparable harm" do not speak to the rule of law but are legal concepts. So do us all a favor, DARVO, define the phrase you insist on using, because how you're using it certainly does not fit into how Aristotle, A.V. Dicey, or even Brian Tamanaha use it.
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