Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on May 6, 2019 2:05:16 GMT -6
Yes, but I also know that not everything was captured in time. For instance the 2011 Arestada isnt archived, but thats hosted on Kingdomoftalossa.net. Speaking of which, why is so much Glheþ stuff on KOT.net?
A lot of damnfoolishness has gone on with this Kingdom's websites since 2005, and my Government aims to fix it.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on May 6, 2019 11:56:05 GMT -6
So I sifted through the Scurznia Gramatica to find some cases where posttonic E was pronounced [ə]:
- -en, most commonly as a plural ending (torüsen [toˈryzən], p. 17; pëvarën [pəˈvaʃən], p. 18) but also in the word qissen [ˈkjɪsən], p. 31
- the aforementioned -ent verb ending, which is described as [ənt] EXCEPT on page 65, where we find marchent [ˈmarkent] and ris'chent [ˈriskent]
- the unstressed vowel in seifet [ˈsaɪ̯fət], p. 44
Three weird specimen that I found were: - dove [ˈdove] with an unreduced E, which combines with à and da to form aduvë and daduvë respectively with a reduced E, p. 34
- ündesch [ˈyndɛʃ] with an unreduced E, even though all other -teens reduce the E and spell it accordingly (dudësch [ˈduðəʃ], tréidësch [ˈtreɪ̯ðəʃ], torthësch [ˈtorðəʃ], etc., all p. 44)
- ciovec [ˈtʃovɛk] with an unreduced E, mimicking the original Serbo-Croatian pronunciation, p. 18 and 81
My E-reduction hypothesis is this: Only pretonic and stressed [ə] seems to be phonemic, which is why I wanted to keep them. But, if we are going to get rid of them as well, the letter Ë would be redundant. I know this overview is not at all comprehensive since its based on the Scurznia Gramatica alone. I'm hoping that we can investigate this further with your copy of the Treisour.
I'm also currently working out a possible rule for where A is reduced to [ə], I'll keep you updated.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on May 8, 2019 21:35:44 GMT -6
Most of my support for post-2007 orthography comes from its enforced simplification of sound inventory, it's phonetic representation of pronunciation, and the fact that it makes the (already somewhat formidable-looking) alphabet easier to learn.
Please note that I'm neither a final resource on any language, nor as well-experienced as most people in this discussion are, even though I consider myself to have good knowledge of Talossan.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on May 8, 2019 21:51:45 GMT -6
So I suppose the question that we go onto from here, having heard from most of the major points of view is: how do we come to a decision on what to do next, if our goal is "establish a single orthography for the Talossan language which makes the maximum number of speakers and would-be speakers feel comfortable"?
I'm in a position now where I could legislatively decree something, with CÚG non-existent, but that would be a measure of last resort.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on May 9, 2019 2:43:54 GMT -6
The problem with attempting to create a compromise orthography is that language really isn't a democracy. It's not something that responds to the will of the people like laws do.
If we're going to create one, though, I would be a proponent of an orthography that uses pre-2007 spelling artifacts (to keep the ancien regime happy) while retaining the post-2007 sound inventory. This is reminiscent of French, which uses accent marks for old pronunciations that have merged in Modern French. This is good because French is a major source language for Talossan, and also keeps to the theme of a Romance-based a posteriori conlang, while also possibly being able to enrich the hypothetical history of the language.
How the grammar would respond to this kind of orthography should be a topic for further discussion, but I would personally prefer that the preservation of pre-2007 spellings take a slight backseat to maintaining the use of modern grammar to prevent the orthography from straying too much from the actual pronunciation of the words.
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on May 9, 2019 10:48:08 GMT -6
If we're going to create one, though, I would be a proponent of an orthography that uses pre-2007 spelling artifacts (to keep the ancien regime happy) while retaining the post-2007 sound inventory. This is reminiscent of French, which uses accent marks for old pronunciations that have merged in Modern French. I dont really know what you mean by this. You mean spelling it as Î but pronouncing it as whatever vowel the post-2007 reform has?
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on May 9, 2019 13:48:54 GMT -6
If we're going to create one, though, I would be a proponent of an orthography that uses pre-2007 spelling artifacts (to keep the ancien regime happy) while retaining the post-2007 sound inventory. This is reminiscent of French, which uses accent marks for old pronunciations that have merged in Modern French. I dont really know what you mean by this. You mean spelling it as Î but pronouncing it as whatever vowel the post-2007 reform has? Pretty much, yeah.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on May 13, 2019 9:06:48 GMT -6
I really can't expect with any seriousness, especially given the history of initiatives like this, that anything will actually change regarding how we handle the language's evolution. Really, the grinding halt of this discussion serves as a perfect case in point.
Perhaps amending the regulation of the language isn't the right way to go about this. Perhaps completely abolishing any regulatory committees is a better alternative. How's a bit of linguistic anarchy sound?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on May 13, 2019 15:17:46 GMT -6
"Grinding halt"? This conversation has proceeded much more quickly and to more purpose than previous discussions on how to get past the impasse. I have held off jumping in too hard because I wanted all voices who were interested to have a say.
If you don't want to have an input in what I (as the "last authority standing") on language decide to do, then you're welcome to leave, but I still value your input, if you want to be involved.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 13, 2019 16:45:43 GMT -6
I really can't expect with any seriousness, especially given the history of initiatives like this, that anything will actually change regarding how we handle the language's evolution. Really, the grinding halt of this discussion serves as a perfect case in point. Perhaps amending the regulation of the language isn't the right way to go about this. Perhaps completely abolishing any regulatory committees is a better alternative. How's a bit of linguistic anarchy sound? As someone who hasn't had much luck with the language, despite buying the book that came out a few years on it, I would love to see more development of the language through its use... as opposed to people making rules about how others should use it. I don't have much to say on this topic, so I will leave you wiser heads to consider it. I just reflect that we have an ongoing problem with people who want to dictate how others do stuff, as opposed to doing stuff themselves. Isn't the bigger issue that no one speaks, writes, or really otherwise uses Talossan these days? Maybe I'm all wrong here. I just imagine some other organization, like the governing body of a sport, faced with the fact that almost no one had played a game in that sport in years... and spending their time arguing about the offsides rules. It's possible that the orthography or whatever is the problem. But shouldn't the problem at least be the focus, not the orthography? Our language is our greatest treasure, but it is very nearly a mere curiosity at this point in the country. There is a book about the language. There is a set of starter lessons in the language. There is a significant body of writing in the language. None of the stuff has worked even a little bit. That worries me. I'm worried that it will become a perfect, well calibrated, intricate jewel that sits like a dead thing on a cushion in a vault. If changes in orthography to someone's preferred version are what takes to get them enthusiastic and using the language, writing poems or continuing conversations, that's great. Maybe that is what you're talking about here?
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on May 13, 2019 18:31:35 GMT -6
The problem with this metaphor is that - given that 99% of Talossan language usage is writing online - the question of orthography is not the offsides rule, but more like a basic question of whether you're allowed to use your hands or not. A matter so basic that you can't teach people the game unless you have wide consensus on the basic rules.
Look, it were up to me, I would do precisely what Sir Tomás suggests, and unilaterally cancel every post-2007 development and go back to how Talossa was spoken in the pre-Republic, pre-Abdication Kingdom, because I have all those language materials. But Iác, for one, said that he'd give up on the language altogether if we reverted to those rules, thus losing us 25% of our active speaker base. So you see my problem.
If people are so impatient and just want this resolved one way or another and don't want any more discussion, maybe that's what I do. But I notice that, again and again in Talossa, people whine and whine and whine about "nothing happening", and then when something happens they whine and whine about unilateral decisions by dictator-like bastards.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 13, 2019 18:55:42 GMT -6
Fair enough. I don't know much about this. I just remember when Cresti and Hool used to write librettos together, while conversations in Talossan would go on between five or six people about one thing or another (usually sports, from what I remember). I just hope that our goal is not a particular set of rules, but a particular outcome of widening use. Cheers.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on May 13, 2019 19:04:17 GMT -6
... and if Cresti and Hool would come back into active usage of the language, our problems would not be as great as they are now!
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 13, 2019 19:57:12 GMT -6
I tried to get Hool interested, but he said it had just gotten too nasty. The usual complaints I hear from folks who have drifted away: it's not fun, too much anger and name calling, etc. I'm sure it's the same for Cresti. Hopefully that will change :-) There's good possibilities.
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Iac Marscheir
Citizen of Talossa
yak marsh air
Posts: 782
Talossan Since: 12-3-2016
Baron Since: Qet Miestra tent zirada.
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Post by Iac Marscheir on May 13, 2019 22:46:02 GMT -6
I've said I'd abandon the language completely in the past. I was also more hot-headed and uncompromising in the past.
My main sticking point is pronunciation, but I won't say "well, I'm taking my personal Talossan and going home!" if that's not done to my absolute satisfaction. I'd like to preserve post-2007 pronunciation rules to the greatest extent possible. I'm also open to reverting orthography to pre-2007 rules, so long as post-2007 pronunciation is preserved as much as possible. I'd like to keep the vowel inventory small, for example.
Now, I realize that just complaining about how this entire thing isn't going anywhere doesn't actually directly move the conversation (although I daresay my strategy was extremely effective), so how about we move this over to the Talossa Discord?
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