Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on May 5, 2016 17:04:19 GMT -6
Is it real that Americans can't understand 2016-05-06?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 5, 2016 17:13:15 GMT -6
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 6, 2016 2:10:36 GMT -6
So, you are intending to choose a format which is NOT standard, and which is NOT understood by the majority of the world. Well so be it (if you are the dictator). What you are doing, though, is trying to limit Talossa to the USA - a narrow and selfish limitation, which should be - nay, must be - beyond the all-encompasing spirit of Talossa.
When you say ISA 8601 cannot (or will not) be understood by the USA population, you are simply wrong. The American way is not the international way: the American (and actually you mean USA) way is laughed at by the rest (95%) of the world. The proportion of non-USA Talossans is growing. The world, not the USA, is what we must be looking at.
The "easily parsed" bit is also wrong (by the way, I have spent much of my working life dealing with parsing - professionally - so I know what I'm talking about here). Part of the reasoning behind ISO 8601 is that it is easily parsed - by everyone. What is "natural and obvious" to a USA resident is not "natural and obvious" to 95% of the world. You say you are opening up the design to anyone who can do better - well, here is "better": use a date format which will be (is!) understood by all of the world. And you are being insulting to your fellow Americans by suggesting that they are so stupid that they cannot understand a date which is so obviously in the YYYY-MM-DD format: they can and they do. Every Talossan can understand the date, in ISO format, at a glance.
Don't be selfish: take advice.
Yours, a loyal Talossan, written on 2016-05-06/XXXVII
Ián Tamorán
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 6, 2016 2:13:20 GMT -6
Those are interesting references. And they both say that the American way is "weird" (a direct quote).
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 6, 2016 2:25:06 GMT -6
... But I'm honestly surprised that some people actively dislike dd-mmm-yyyy. It stands zero chance of being ambiguous to anyone, even those benighted American-Talossans.... "Some people" are the International people. Talossa is not the USA: Talossa is Talossa - and is, at heart - free of all other national boundaries. We have our own system of government, our own language, our own laws, our own culture, and we believe that in those we have chosen the best that is on offer, and we continually strive to improve the nation. International date format is an improvement - and brings us into step with thousands of millions of people.
"Zero chance of being ambiguous" Oh, come one! Why on earth was it necessary in the International world to mandate a logical, universal, date format? Answer: (partly) because mm-dd-yy and dd-mm-yy are ambiguous - as are many of the other formats. ISO 8601 is not ambiguous, and is understood - universally.
And the three-character language-specific representation of the months? Well, only if these are in Talossan - and only in Talossan. ISO 8601 is free of that narrow, linguistic, limitation.
Ián Tamorán 2016-05-06/XXXVII
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 6, 2016 2:26:54 GMT -6
Is it real that Americans can't understand 2016-05-06? No, it is not real. Americans are not stupid! Everyone understands YYYY-MM-DD.
Your friend, Ián Tamorán 2016-05-06/XXXVII
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Üc R. Tärfâ
Talossan since 3-8-2005
Deputy Fiôván Secretary of State
Posts: 760
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Post by Üc R. Tärfâ on May 6, 2016 2:34:22 GMT -6
It's seldom used in America, although most anyone who works with computers or code will be familiar with it. It's not as though it would be impossible to figure out, but it's just uncommon. Well, the point is not common/uncommon but understandable/not understandable. It's uncommon here too (I use it to name my files), but I never find someone who can't understand it... YYYY-MM-DD is way better than your MMM because numbers are beyond language barriers... I do speak English... But -07- is still simpler for me than -Jul-
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 6, 2016 2:42:33 GMT -6
.... It's uncommon here too (I use it to name my files), but I never find someone who can't understand it... Aha! I use it to name my files, as well ... though (depending on the operating system) I do not always include the hyphens (because I can't).FYI, I have been using the ISO format since before it was adopted (since 1963, actually). Why? Because my work was used Internationally.Ián Tamorán2016-05-06/XXXVII
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 6, 2016 5:31:12 GMT -6
So, you are intending to choose a format which is NOT standard, and which is NOT understood by the majority of the world. Well so be it (if you are the dictator). What you are doing, though, is trying to limit Talossa to the USA - a narrow and selfish limitation, which should be - nay, must be - beyond the all-encompasing spirit of Talossa. I'm not using the American standard way. You understand that, right? I mean, I write today's date as 5/6/2016, and anything else takes me a moment to parse, including 2016-5-6. But I'm not using the style I'm most comfortable with because it wouldn't serve the significant portion of Talossans who aren't comfortable with it. The all-encompassing spirit of Talossa must surely encompass all Talossans, not just the non-Americans, right? When you say ISA 8601 cannot (or will not) be understood by the USA population, you are simply wrong. The American way is not the international way: the American (and actually you mean USA) way is laughed at by the rest (95%) of the world. The proportion of non-USA Talossans is growing. The world, not the USA, is what we must be looking at. You seem very sure of this, but I'd be curious to know why. The government was elected to serve Talossa and Talossans. This identification will only be issued to verified citizens of Talossa. I don't really think it's my place to try to force people into using something I might consider "better" -- that would be rather dictatorial! Instead, I'm trying to serve as many of the people the best way that I can. I am sure you are right that 95% of the world uses different formats (albeit not ISO in lockstep) and that many consider the American way to be silly. But Talossan identification should be easily and obviously accessible to as many Talossans as possible. Our official language is Talossan but we communicate in English, ergo both will be included. Our population is half American-Talossan and half from other places, ergo a date format will be used that can be immediately parsed by both. It's not my job to try to dictate to people a better way. If half our population spoke German, I'd also include German, even though I don't use it. The "easily parsed" bit is also wrong (by the way, I have spent much of my working life dealing with parsing - professionally - so I know what I'm talking about here). Part of the reasoning behind ISO 8601 is that it is easily parsed - by everyone. What is "natural and obvious" to a USA resident is not "natural and obvious" to 95% of the world. You say you are opening up the design to anyone who can do better - well, here is "better": use a date format which will be ( is!) understood by all of the world. And you are being insulting to your fellow Americans by suggesting that they are so stupid that they cannot understand a date which is so obviously in the YYYY-MM-DD format: they can and they do. Every Talossan can understand the date, in ISO format, at a glance. Don't be selfish: take advice. With all due respect, you're insisting I use the date format that you like most, and brushing aside the fact that the 5% of the world population you're willing to dismiss is half or more of the Talossan population who don't find it natural and obvious. But it's definitely possible that you're right that a majority of Talossans would prefer 2016/XXXVII-05-06. And I definitely appreciate your input, and, as I said, I'll take it to my superiors. Yours, a loyal Talossan, written on 2016-05-06/XXXVII Ián Tamorán Your dating style is not one of the possibilities. The law dictates that the Talossan year must follow the Gregorian year. If you do it the way you have it, it would have to be 2016/XXXVII-05-06. Is that what you would prefer? It's seldom used in America, although most anyone who works with computers or code will be familiar with it. It's not as though it would be impossible to figure out, but it's just uncommon. Well, the point is not common/uncommon but understandable/not understandable. It's uncommon here too (I use it to name my files), but I never find someone who can't understand it... YYYY-MM-DD is way better than your MMM because numbers are beyond language barriers... I do speak English... But -07- is still simpler for me than -Jul- Thank you for your input. I will definitely take this all into consideration and take it upstairs.
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Ián Tamorán S.H.
Chief Justice of the Uppermost Court
Proud Philosopher of Talossa
Posts: 1,401
Talossan Since: 9-27-2010
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Post by Ián Tamorán S.H. on May 6, 2016 7:09:06 GMT -6
I'm not using the American standard way. You understand that, right? I mean, I write today's date as 5/6/2016, and anything else takes me a moment to parse, including 2016-5-6. So anything other than the USA mm-dd-yy takes even you time to parse, eh? So that removes parsing time as a valid argument.
The all-encompassing spirit of Talossa must surely encompass all Talossans, not just the non-Americans, right? Absolutely right – and it is clear that ISO 8601 serves Americans too – just ask any of them who have worked on any international project. And if there’s one thing Talossa is, it’s international. All Talossans.
You seem very sure of this, but I'd be curious to know why. The government was elected to serve Talossa and Talossans. This identification will only be issued to verified citizens of Talossa. I don't really think it's my place to try to force people into using something I might consider "better" -- that would be rather dictatorial! Instead, I'm trying to serve as many of the people the best way that I can. Exactly so. The verified citizens of Talossa are not stupid; the verified citizens of Talossa have some international experience; many of the verified citizens of Talossa are not from the USA: all citizens of Talossa can understand ISO 8601. And I am very sure of it precisely because I have, professionally, been involved with international projects - many of them. In every case ISO 8601 (or its precursors) was mandated, as being the only mutually comprehensible format.
I am sure you are right that 95% of the world uses different formats (albeit not ISO in lockstep) and that many consider the American way to be silly.
Yup. Silly. And is Talossa interested in 5% or 95%?
But Talossan identification should be easily and obviously accessible to as many Talossans as possible. ...including the (numerous) non-USA ones.
Our official language is Talossan but we communicate in English, ergo both will be included. Our population is half American-Talossan and half from other places, ergo a date format will be used that can be immediately parsed by both. Yup – American (i.e. USA) and non-American. That’s what ISO 8601 is for – universal comprehension.
It's not my job to try to dictate to people a better way. If half our population spoke German, I'd also include German, even though I don't use it. Yes – it is not your job to dictate a better way: it is your job to listen to advice. Especially when that advice is from people who have direct, and long, experience of the root problems.
With all due respect, you're insisting I use the date format that you like most, and brushing aside the fact that the 5% of the world population you're willing to dismiss is half or more of the Talossan population who don't find it natural and obvious. But it's definitely possible that you're right that a majority of Talossans would prefer 2016/XXXVII-05-06. And I definitely appreciate your input, and, as I said, I'll take it to my superiors. That is not what I said. But here, by your own admission, you recognise that up to half of the Talossan population is not USA resident. It is not a question as to whether either you or I prefer some date format or other: it is a question as to what is right. International Standards, where they exist, are right.
Yours, a loyal Talossan, written on 2016-05-06/XXXVII
Ián Tamorán
Your dating style is not one of the possibilities. The law dictates that the Talossan year must follow the Gregorian year. If you do it the way you have it, it would have to be 2016/XXXVII-05-06. Is that what you would prefer? Really? Which law? And is such a law (if you can direct me to it) immutable? We have adopted metric units of measure (other than using the Fahrenheit degree for temperature), so we can just as easily adopt another international standard (if, indeed, it is necessary to change a law). No, YYYY-MM-DD/XXXX (where XXXX represents the Talossan year) is close to the date format that will make Talossa even more international.
As ever,
Ián Tamorán 2016-05-06/XXXVII
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Post by Danihel Txechescu on May 6, 2016 7:50:03 GMT -6
Your dating style is not one of the possibilities. The law dictates that the Talossan year must follow the Gregorian year. If you do it the way you have it, it would have to be 2016/XXXVII-05-06. Is that what you would prefer? Really? Which law? And is such a law (if you can direct me to it) immutable? We have adopted metric units of measure (other than using the Fahrenheit degree for temperature), so we can just as easily adopt another international standard (if, indeed, it is necessary to change a law). No, YYYY-MM-DD/XXXX (where XXXX represents the Talossan year) is close to the date format that will make Talossa even more international. I wasn't aware of that requirement either, it wasn't mentioned earlier in this thread. Sounds like the law was serving the MM/DD/YYYY format specifically. But this Ián Tamorán 2016-05-06/XXXVII this is excellent, makes the most sense. As for the necessity to immediately understand the date with a glance -- not a chance, not when 50% of your population (by your inexact numbers) will have trouble parsing it in a jiffy. Furthermore, there are way more difficult things to understand in a Talossan ID than a standard, unambiguous date.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 6, 2016 8:31:05 GMT -6
The relevant law is "In commemoration of the longevity of Talossa, all newspapers and official documents bearing the year of publication are required to cite the year in both the Christian and Talossan form. The Talossan Year begins on the 26th of December, and 26 Dec 1979 was Year I of the Kingdom. For example, dates will henceforth be written: "Wednesday, October 21st, 1987/VIII." This seems to imply to me a specific dating format for the year, and even to suggest an abbreviation, albeit the latter bit would have no force of law. Beyond that, I definitely think you guys have made your opinion clear, and I appreciate the feedback. I'll pass it along. Any other thoughts on anything else? Or anyone else with design submissions or the like?
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Post by Danihel Txechescu on May 6, 2016 8:52:24 GMT -6
The relevant law is "In commemoration of the longevity of Talossa, all newspapers and official documents bearing the year of publication are required to cite the year in both the Christian and Talossan form. The Talossan Year begins on the 26th of December, and 26 Dec 1979 was Year I of the Kingdom. For example, dates will henceforth be written: "Wednesday, October 21st, 1987/VIII." Alex, that doesn't say that Christian and Talossan years must be connected by a forward bar. Ián's dating was perfect. Thus is legal, Talossan, unambiguous, and language agnostic.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 6, 2016 9:00:26 GMT -6
Thank you for your input. I'll pass it all along for a decision.
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Victor Blazquez
Citizen of Talossa
You can also call me Bitoûr (Talossan)
Posts: 71
Talossan Since: 5-25-2016
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Post by Victor Blazquez on May 6, 2016 9:39:10 GMT -6
Hello, Sir Alexandreu Davinescu. I'd like to create a new design for the Talossan ID-Cards, but if I create it, how can i send it to you? Kind regards Victor B.
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