Reverse Terp: AD, you slanderer, I'm calling you out!

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

"The Government refuses to prosecute its political allies"

Who in the name of the Compassionate and Merciful do you want us to prosecute? Me, I'm mostly busy working up an appeal brief on the 48RZ27 issue right now.

I also don't remember anything about a "promised culture price", but I'll let Françal tell you how awful you are on that issue.

I also repeat that clearly you have no problem with the King falling asleep on the Royal Commission on the OrgLaw, or the conservative appointees to it not participating. So it's just more partisan muck from you - you will make any bogus or misleading speech, any time, to smear your political opponents, or to cover for your buddies. You live and breath partisanship. Anything your friends do is covered up for with a glib speech - anything your enemies do is a Crime Against Humanity.

I am looking forward so much to you losing a 4th election in a row, and hopefully your ability to block OrgLaw change into the bargain. This government has been far from perfect, but the next Government will be much better - assuming you're not in it.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Dec 12, 2015 17:52:55 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

"The Government refuses to prosecute its political allies"

Who in the name of the Compassionate and Merciful do you want us to prosecute? Me, I'm mostly busy working up an appeal brief on the 48RZ27 issue right now.

I also don't remember anything about a "promised culture price", but I'll let Françal tell you how awful you are on that issue.

I also repeat that clearly you have no problem with the King falling asleep on the Royal Commission on the OrgLaw, or the conservative appointees to it not participating. So it's just more partisan muck from you - you will make any bogus or misleading speech, any time, to smear your political opponents, or to cover for your buddies. You live and breath partisanship. Anything your friends do is covered up for with a glib speech - anything your enemies do is a Crime Against Humanity.

I am looking forward so much to you losing a 4th election in a row, and hopefully your ability to block OrgLaw change into the bargain. This government has been far from perfect, but the next Government will be much better - assuming you're not in it.

Dama Miestra, you have forgotten to use my Talossan name. You do that very often. I wonder if you could be more considerate? I do not ever refer to you by your English-language name, since you've made it clear that you want to keep Talossa separate from other things in your life -- could you do myself and others the same courtesy? I know you're not doing it on purpose just as a sort of attack, and that it's just carelessness, but come on... it's just common courtesy and you have done it often. Please give people the same courtesy that they give you.

Senator Roibeardescu apparently offered to trade a political post for the failure of a bill. The Government didn't even seek charges at all. Whether or not Txosue is guilty of anything, it hardly seems the Government's place to just decide that he shouldn't get a trial -- just because it's politically inconvenient. You yourself spoke about the need for pursuing these things... I can quote your own words back to you on that front. And why aren't charges being pursued against Tim Asmourescu for either his false accusations (or, if he was telling the truth, conspiracy to pervert justice)... is it because he's another political ally and it would be inconvenient? And the citizens who lied about their age to become citizens... another case where it's inconvenient? How many public confessions of wrongdoing do we need, before justice is done somewhere?

Other distractions just aren't going to work... particularly when the appointed RUMPers are already participating in the Commission -- this very month! And while I'm not responsible for His Majesty's participants, I see that one of them posted an hour and a half before your words here. This is... flimsy, to say the least.

And anyway, what on earth does the Commission stuff have to do with anything? Is this honestly the reply to the lack of coins, to the failure with stamps, to the lack of government activity reports, and... oh, heavens, everything else? (Too many things to list again, but I can copy-paste if needed). When is this Government going to apologize to the people?

Are we getting name-calling on the floor of the Ziu instead of coins? Because this post doesn't have as much collector's value, despite its charm.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Senator Roibeardescu apparently offered to trade a political post for the failure of a bill. The Government didn't even seek charges at all. Whether or not Txosue is guilty of anything, it hardly seems the Government's place to just decide that he shouldn't get a trial --

Yes it does. It is my judgement as A-G that the Senator for Cézembre didn't do anything which could be made to stick as a crime under Talossan law. If you don't like it, wait for another A-G, or take a private prosecution. If we couldn't nail Hool for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice (and we actually had evidence and law on our side that time), then a fortiori such a prosecution would be a waste of time. I've never seen any legal beagle actually show us what law R-escu is supposed to have violated.

You might think that the job of A-G is to prosecute any wild goose chase just in case it sticks - an interesting idea which it would be interesting to see happen if, God Almighty forbid, you and yours get anywhere near the A-G's office again.

And as for "political allies"? You know that's not true at all, again you're just retailing slander in hope someone might believe it. That Senator quit the Free Democrats in protest at the merger. In particular he doesn't like me for whatever reason.

And why aren't charges being pursued against Tim Asmourescu for either his false accusations (

Now you are just saying things which you know to be arrant lies just to rile me up. Hool and Asmourescu broke the law, IMHO, and there's a case to be made that so did the King. Asmourescu turned State's Evidence and handed over all the delicious evidence which is now in the public domain. Your clever RUMP lawyer, Cresti, sandbagged the case to the point where my predecessor as A-G gave up in disgust. Without wanting to comment on whether that was a good idea or not, it was your RUMP colleagues who destroyed the Hool/Asmourescu case - and now you want to go after Asmourescu on precisely the same evidence which my predecessor didn't find sufficient to pursue his co-conspirator?

Your arguments that Asmourescu should be prosecuted on evidence which wasn't sufficient to prosecute Hooligan - OR that he should be prosecuted for "false accusations", if that's even a crime under Talossan law! - are a prima facie case of bad faith. It's Freud's broken kettle. The evidence shows a conspiracy between Hool and Asmourescu with the King nodding his head to it. If it was a conspiracy, Hool should have been nailed. If it wasn't a conspiracy, no crime was committed. The only possible way these could be "false accusations" is if you are arguing that the email logs were forged, which I really hope you are arguing, because it's so stupid.

And the citizens who lied about their age to become citizens... another case where it's inconvenient?

No such report has been made to the A-G's office on this issue.

How many public confessions of wrongdoing do we need, before justice is done somewhere?

You just want the partisan agenda of the RUMP enacted. You don't care about justice. All you care about is finding some bogus scandal with which to bash the government which has beaten your sorry ciúl three times.

I get so angry responding to your outright lies and fabrications, uttered with a straight face. I will call you every name under the sun in the hope that it might incur a little bit of shame at your total dishonesty.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Apologies for use of your English-language name, by the way. Your Talossan one wouldn't fit, unless I used a word with less letters than "slanderer".

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I accept your apology.

Dec 12, 2015 19:21:28 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Yes it does. It is my judgement as A-G that the Senator for Cézembre didn't do anything which could be made to stick as a crime under Talossan law. If you don't like it, wait for another A-G, or take a private prosecution. If we couldn't nail Hool for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice (and we actually had evidence and law on our side that time), then a fortiori such a prosecution would be a waste of time. I've never seen any legal beagle actually show us what law R-escu is supposed to have violated.

Well, I certainly do hope for a new A-X. But I don't intend to try to do your work for you, just because it's hard. I don't agree with the legal theory of "Roman prosecutions," and hope to have that overturned. The idea that everyone has standing for every crime is a recipe for legal chaos... or legal inaction, since the A-X can apparently cite the existence of private prosecution as an excuse for not doing their job.

I guess I do have the answer, though... you don't think Roibeardescu broke the law. Thank you, that does clear up why you didn't prosecute the head of the Funziun for trading an appointment to a Member of Cosa in return for the abandoning of a bill in front of the legislature.

Dec 12, 2015 19:21:28 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

You might think that the job of A-G is to prosecute any wild goose chase just in case it sticks - an interesting idea which it would be interesting to see happen if, God Almighty forbid, you and yours get anywhere near the A-G's office again.

Well, no... But I do think that when people make big splashy confessions of wrongdoing, they probably did something wrong. I have a solid hunch, anyway. Remember that thing when he said it was true and that he was wrong to do it?

Or wait, are you saying that this stuff just didn't happen?

Dec 12, 2015 19:21:28 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Now you are just saying things which you know to be arrant lies just to rile me up. Hool and Asmourescu broke the law, IMHO, and there's a case to be made that so did the King. Asmourescu turned State's Evidence and handed over all the delicious evidence which is now in the public domain. Your clever RUMP lawyer, Cresti, sandbagged the case to the point where my predecessor as A-G gave up in disgust. Without wanting to comment on whether that was a good idea or not, it was your RUMP colleagues who destroyed the Hool/Asmourescu case - and now you want to go after Asmourescu on precisely the same evidence which my predecessor didn't find sufficient to pursue.

Your arguments that Asmourescu should be prosecuted on evidence which wasn't sufficient to prosecute Hooligan - OR that he should be prosecuted for "false accusations", if that's even a crime under Talossan law! - are a prima facie case of bad faith. It's Freud's broken kettle. The evidence shows a conspiracy between Hool and Asmourescu with the King nodding his head to it. If it was a conspiracy, Hool should have been nailed. If it wasn't a conspiracy, no crime was committed. The only possible way these could be "false accusations" is if you are arguing that the email logs were forged, which I really hope you are arguing, because it's so stupid.

Dama Miestra, S:reu Asmourescu publicly confessed. Seriously. Don't you remember? He said that he committed a terrible crime, and resigned all his offices, and so on. I can quote the thread for you, if you want.

He confessed.

You don't have to try to prove that he knowingly did wrong because he said that he did. Exhibit A would be his confession. That would probably be the last exhibit, and S:reu Asmourescu would probably also be obliged to plead out (although maybe not during this Government). What's he going to say... that he never really did it, and that he lied about it when he confessed and when he submitted statements to the Government?

Because if he didn't do anything and turned "state's evidence" on false pretenses, then that too would be a crime.

Criminals are doing everything short of delivering themselves tied up with a bow.

Dec 12, 2015 19:21:28 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

No such report has been made to the A-G's office on this issue.

I believe it.

Dec 12, 2015 19:21:28 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

You just want the partisan agenda of the RUMP enacted. You don't care about justice. All you care about is finding some bogus scandal with which to bash the government which has beaten your sorry ciúl three times.

Dama Miestra... I'm not making anything up. Not a single jot. Nothing is exaggerated or fabricated or anything.

There are no coins.

Stamps go unsold.

There are no government activity reports.

There has been no prosecution of any of these people, even the people who posted big splashy confessions.

It took almost until the end of the term for basic government information to be updated.

And so on, and so on, and so on.

I know you're upset at me for pointing these things out... maybe you think I shouldn't speak up. Maybe you think that I'm not entitled -- as a Member of the Cosa and a Member of the Ziu and a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa -- to address my Government's failures and demand redress.

But I disagree.

I do not have confidence in this government, and neither should any MC or any voter. Not after all of these broken promises and failures.

[Glüc da Dhi]

Dec 12, 2015 18:46:09 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

And the citizens who lied about their age to become citizens... another case where it's inconvenient?

Well, if I interpreted that correctly, that should pretty much prove Miestra point about you being dishonest.

You should know that a) this case was uncovered by members of their own party and
b) it was illegal to prosecute underaged citizens at the time of the offense. (I know you know (or at least knew) this because you commented on the bill that fixed it and your paper covered the MM senatorial debates where this issue was being discussed during the Vuode senatorial debates, which your newspaper covered)
To suggest that this is about political motives is a very serious accusations, and since you know it to be wrong I expect a correction and an apology.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

No, Gluc, I had just forgotten about how that ended. I apologize for my mistake! In this regard, the Government is not at fault and is not to blame for failing to prosecute. Not sure where my head was with that one... sorry!

In my defense... it's a long list of problems, and there's no getting around the missing coins, the wasted stamps, and... well, everything else!

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Dec 12, 2015 19:21:28 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Your clever RUMP lawyer, Cresti, sandbagged the case to the point where my predecessor as A-G gave up in disgust.

What the hell is this supposed to mean?

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

Did everyone forget that the result of the Roibeardescu affair was his resignation and a confession that he had been deeply mentally unwell for a number of weeks? I'm quite disgusted that what AD is suggesting is something akin to a witch-hunt of someone who has done the right thing in stepping down, and of someone who clearly wasn't coping very well. The heartlessness in this thread is appalling...

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

As to an apology... Yes, I do owe people an apology for how this government has gone. It has been difficult and has been clear to me that save for a few exceptions (Miestra in particular) there were very few people in government who wanted to make a difference. Worse, that shifting these people around and replacing them was made increasingly difficult given that the only people from the coalition willing to actually serve would come predominantly from my own party.

It was depressingly difficult; I went in to this term excited that I would finally be able to make a difference. In our Cabinet group on Facebook, I used to excitedly post thoughts, plans, questions to my colleagues. Instead, my colleagues have killed Talossa for me. The only hope this country has is if the Free Democrats have enough seats after this election to govern without being weighed down again. I doubt I will be there with them in government when they make it there again, but I know they'll carry whatever government they're involved in.

As for me - Talossan politics is doomed if parties who haven't even tried are given the power to strangle the life out of the progressive movement. Talossan politics is doomed if it can't change because either the King is not around, or his most ardent defenders are content to defend every instance of poor governance so long as it comes from someone 'on their side'. Talossa disgusts me right now, and it has sapped me of all my energy. I'm sorry that I've been quieter than both you or I would like.

[Glüc da Dhi]

Wow. I'm no part of this government, so I can't tell everything that went on behind the scenes. When I was PM I at least took responsibility for my cabinet. I remember getting a lot of criticism, even from my own cabinet, especially from the party whose ministers did the least during my term (The most succesful ministries were led by an independent and someone from my own party). And of course, I was not present enough, despite getting involved in various projects ministers or my Distain were supposed to do, many of which sadly failed, but I didnt go around blaming the ZRT ministers for everything. (Of course, to be fair, Miestra did her fair share.) Instead I stood by my government, for which I was responsible, and that includes all ministers. (I may have slipped at the moment when you were angrily resigning and bashing me)
And you're right it does look like the MRPT ministers have been fairly inactive, and that's a shame, and FDT have done more, which is great, but from my perspective as an outsider, the weighing down argument seems to be bullshit. It does not explain any of the failures at the other ministries, it does not explain your absence (you have posted even less than me the last few months), and it does not relieve you from your responsibility as Seneschal and boss of all ministers. And even then, Ive seen the Distain taking over tasks, Ive seen the foreign minister, who was appointed as an MRPT member, and his deputy done good work. With regards to stuff, sure Sev has been inactive, though he was also the one creating the portal in the first place after like 10 terms in which this was promised by other ministers, but never done, and he has enabled anyone to help him with updating the site and almost no one did, especially not the ones now complaining about being weighed down. (At least thats my interpretation from observing the situation as an outsider.)
Honestly, if the PM doesnt stand by his government, Im really not sure why I, as MC should. Its all the fault of everyone else just doesnt come across as believable. Ministers have been inactive since I became a citizen here many terms ago. Your job is to deal with that.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

In case you missed my apology, look again. I don't much care if you agree that your party has weighed us down - it has. If I wasn't taking responsibility I wouldn't have stepped down as leader of my party. The reality is that Luc has been great (I mentioned exceptions) as has my Foreign Minister (who is no longer a member of your party, correct?)

It has been tiring, exhausting and like getting blood out of a stone from most others. Their reluctance to do anything without being nagged ceaselessly is an indication of a complete lack of self-motivation on their part, and their respective parties need to take responsibility for that just as I have taken responsibility for running out of steam. I stepped aside from leadership of my party because I have let them down - now stop hiding behind that rather thin veil of mock outrage and get your own party into shape.

EDIT: you're right, it is my job to deal with it. I did everything I could, and I take responsibility for failing to do that. But it is not just to give everyone else a free pass. This government did some tremendously good things, and I will always stand by those things, but I find it tremendously unjust to demand my silence when I am critical of my coalition partners. Surely you've seen people in coalitions exit towards the end of their electoral terms highlighting the problems within? Surely you believe that the electorate has a right to know?

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

CCX, you can't let this stuff drag you down or diminish your enthusiasm, man. It can be really hard -- but that doesn't mean you give up or turn away! You have to get creative or try something new, rather than trying to slog through a mire that's holding you back. I really hope that you will remain active and with us in Talossa.

I'm not apologizing for vigorously advocating for the country or pointing out the problems, and I'm not making excuses for you. I don't think the FDT should be rewarded for this past term by getting even more votes, and I doubt the voters will do that. But this stuff happens. It happened to me, so I know where you're at. I lost my steam when I was Prime Minister, and that seriously contributed to the RUMP loss of seats and votes that followed. It took years -- and the experience of running Beric'ht Talossan -- to figure out how to handle the situation... where you find that your enthusiasm goes nowhere because so few people share your energy. It's like wading through mud up to your thighs, and by the time it's over, you're exhausted and you've made little progress. It's frustrating, I know. But Talossa is a magical place, and there are so many amazing things you can do.

It is really important that Talossa not stay "killed" for you, CCX, since you are a great part of it and everyone wants you to stay with us and help us move forward into the future. You're a great guy and a great Talossan... so, politics aside, I hope you don't let this experience drive you into inactivity. You'd always be welcome back at Beric'ht Talossan -- your column was great! -- or there's getting back involved with ETT or there's provincial politics or there's a ton of other things, and those are all different experiences and different activities when compared with national politics. They have their own fun flavor.

Talossa is more than national politics... and I hope you stay a big part of Talossa in the future, in some capacity!

[Glüc da Dhi]

Dec 13, 2015 7:21:31 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

In case you missed my apology, look again. I don't much care if you agree that your party has weighed us down - it has. If I wasn't taking responsibility I wouldn't have stepped down as leader of my party. The reality is that Luc has been great (I mentioned exceptions) as has my Foreign Minister (who is no longer a member of your party, correct?)

Come on now, are you saying that without the help of Lüc, who Ive seen more than you and Sev, who has asked for help repeatedly and given people the chance to update the website that was released under his watch and Ian, who has helped out on two ministries and has done more than anyone to actually advance the coalition agreement in the cosa, that the website now would have been updated or that all the none MRPT led ministries would suddenly be more active, or that you would have been more present? I don't think thats believable. I really dont think anyone outside the FDT believes that.

Surely you've seen people in coalitions exit towards the end of their electoral terms highlighting the problems within? Surely you believe that the electorate has a right to know?

Well, not like this anyway. In the Netherlands we have a thing called dualism where the MC part of a party is really separate from the cabinet. The cabinet are generally regarded as one team, they take a similar position and both parties share responsibility for that cabinet and certainly the PM would publicly always support his/her ministers. MCs can be more critical of separate ministers, but even then they are responsible for the entire cabinet. When a cabinet falls apart obviously parties will try to shift the blame on the other side, but there is always a sense of shared responsibility of the things that happened before then. And going towards the elections, government parties usually focus on positive ideological differences and future plans rather than fight about the past cabinet. A statement like yours (or even a statement like Miestras or Francals a while ago) would certainly mean the definitive end of the coalition in the Netherlands. No doubt about that. ( I guess that could be considered good news for the RUMP)

(Also, the electorate obviously deserves to know, but I think they can see for themselves which ministers are active. Its not like youve released any new information. And if voters arent paying attention, Im sure they can count on the opposition to point that out.)

[Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă]

It is generally understood by all former Seneschals (myself included) that running a government is exhausting and full of stress. I was under stress to accomplish various goals, work with cabinet members who would not cooperate, fend off members of my own party (who also weren't helping out), and fend off attacks from other parties. All of this while holding down a very challenging full-time job outside of Talossa. That is a peculiarity of our system - our leaders are unpaid volunteers. Please everyone try to remember that when going on and on endlessly about "the failings of this" or "the horror of that." (I'm looking at you AD - you've been particularly brutal).

This thread has three former and one current Seneschal's posting and each of them have said basically the same thing. Let's not execute our former leaders for the mere six-seven months in office. Most world leaders can't even get their offices redecorated in that short amount of time, and we expect our governments to get EVERYTHING done in their platforms in that time? Get real.