|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 10:40:44 GMT -6
I think that it's a good idea - their weird wording does need to be fixed. Some rights should be extended even to non citizens. Just not all.
|
|
Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
|
Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 25, 2014 10:44:32 GMT -6
I think that it's a good idea - their weird wording does need to be fixed. Some rights should be extended even to non citizens. Just not all. But there is no specific wrong that is being addressed? No one has been harmed because of the current wording?
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 10:54:35 GMT -6
Not as far as I know. We're just working on perfecting them.
|
|
|
Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 25, 2014 10:58:50 GMT -6
Why, Senator Preston, does it have to come to somebody having been harmed by flawed laws, that we start taking action about something? Is it not desirable that we prevent harm, not just from the people of Talossa, but from every innocent person? Should we not defend democratic rights to the utmost?
|
|
Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
|
Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 25, 2014 11:04:02 GMT -6
Why, Senator Preston, does it have to come to somebody having been harmed by flawed laws, that we start taking action about something? Is it not desirable that we prevent harm, not just from the people of Talossa, but from every innocent person? Should we not defend democratic rights to the utmost? Why must we rush to change something that is not currently broken? I've seen no one in the past 8 years harmed by the current wording of the Covenants. We may never see anyone harmed by the current wording of the Covenants. Why are we preventing a "harm" that has not occurred, and very well may never occur ? Just whose democratic rights are being currently abridged by the wording of the Covenants ?
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 18:52:27 GMT -6
I certainly don't feel there's a rush, which is why I voted this down. We have to be careful as we work to fix it. But it is still a potential problem, I think. A very far-flung hypothetical problem, but also an interesting one to discuss.
|
|
Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
|
Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 25, 2014 19:41:15 GMT -6
But is it truly broken, that it needs to be fixed? That's the root of my concern.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 19:58:45 GMT -6
Yeah, I think we probably should certify that non-citizens have the right to trials and freedom of speech and all that good stuff. We just have to do so in a way that doesn't also let them run amok through our system.
|
|
Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
|
Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 25, 2014 20:07:47 GMT -6
Yeah, I think we probably should certify that non-citizens have the right to trials and freedom of speech and all that good stuff. We just have to do so in a way that doesn't also let them run amok through our system. So, let me ask this - what limitations do they currently have on being able to speak freely? What laws can they break,that they can be tried for?
|
|
|
Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 20:10:29 GMT -6
None! However, the Ziu could pass a law saying that non-citizens are not allowed to say bad things about Talossa, for example. This wouldn't hold up Organically if it was levied on citizens, and has no moral backing, but there's no legal reason why it couldn't be passed and enforced currently. Again, this is all pretty hypothetical, but it's worth fixing, since there's little downside and it yet again improves our Invincible Moral Superiority.
It's fiddly, though, which is why I am being so unfortunately bull-headed about getting it right. Epic is, incidentally, due some praise for his dedication and even-tempered efforts here. Kudos!
|
|
Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
|
Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 25, 2014 20:18:01 GMT -6
None! However, the Ziu could pass a law saying that non-citizens are not allowed to say bad things about Talossa, for example. This wouldn't hold up Organically if it was levied on citizens, and has no moral backing, but there's no legal reason why it couldn't be passed and enforced currently. Again, this is all pretty hypothetical, but it's worth fixing, since there's little downside and it yet again improves our Invincible Moral Superiority. It's fiddly, though, which is why I am being so unfortunately bull-headed about getting it right. Then I believe we need to start working immediately on what the Kingdom should do in case of Zombie attack. THIS I am in total agreement with. Thank you, Epic!
|
|
Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
|
Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on May 27, 2014 10:42:58 GMT -6
So basically, the conservative faction are terrified that a non-citizen will help set up a political party? That really smacks of old-school suspicion of outsiders, of the kind of persecution which the late 90's Liberals faced because of their Penguinean friends. It is so heart-warming to know that the distain can so easily dismiss the largest faction in the Ziu so easily with unnecessary rhetorical smugness.
|
|
|
Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 27, 2014 10:59:02 GMT -6
I can understand both sides, really I can. But whereas in almost every other western country I can think of, civil rights, rights to a fair process/trial, etc. are not a matter of citizens only, but of every person in the country's jurisdiction; I pray that you realise that Talossa, right now, applies Saudi or Emirates-style standards, where the laws are quite stagnate and a remarkable amount have not really changed from thence hither, rather than European/Western standards.
|
|
Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
|
Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on May 27, 2014 11:06:18 GMT -6
I can understand both sides, really I can. But whereas in almost every other western country I can think of, civil rights, rights to a fair process/trial, etc. are not a matter of citizens only, but of every person in the country's jurisdiction; I pray that you realise that Talossa, right now, applies Saudi or Emirates-style standards, where the laws are quite stagnate and a remarkable amount have not really changed from thence hither, rather than European/Western standards. Did you really just equate Talossa with Saudi Arabia? That is insulting on numerous levels sir. Talossa is not an absolute monarchy for one, we don't hang or behead our citizens, and we don't implement Sharia law. How dare you say such a thing - this from the Attorney General in a government that was freely elected and had no disputes over succession to the government.
|
|
|
Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 27, 2014 11:12:11 GMT -6
Oh, get off your high horse. You know exactly at what angle I aimed my comparison, so do not try to twist it around, thank you. And, quite to the contrary, I might add, can I relate better to the Middle East mentality, which you cannot, I assume. So by saying that it were insulting, you are insulting a part of my heritage.
While I do condemn the Sharia law, the blind Muslim-ity, any kinds of death penalties, and an absolute monarchy (fiercely so!), nothing in my text alluded to any of these. If you read carefully, without twisting my words, you'll see that I talk aboute "civil rights" and "rights to a fair process/trial" of non-citizens. Again, thus, I pray: get off your high horse of rhetorics, there.
|
|