Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Mar 3, 2014 8:44:57 GMT -6
Guantánamo Bay is quite self-explanatory, isn't it? If I am asking, then it's not. You are using a word that doesn't exist in any language.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 3, 2014 11:10:34 GMT -6
And that is what "neologisms" are. New words that have not been used in such a context, for example "(to) mick".
Guantánamo Bay Naval Base is the extralegal detention centre of the United States that does not allow its captives right to due trial and right to physical integrity. And our Covenant of Rights excludes the rights in its current form for non-Citizens.
"(to) guantánamobay" shall mean the treatment of a person or persons as they would be treated in that specific detention centre. Really not hard if you think about it, is it?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Mar 3, 2014 12:00:54 GMT -6
And that is what "neologisms" are. New words that have not been used in such a context, for example "(to) mick". Guantánamo Bay Naval Base is the extralegal detention centre of the United States that does not allow its captives right to due trial and right to physical integrity. And our Covenant of Rights excludes the rights in its current form for non-Citizens. "(to) guantánamobay" shall mean the treatment of a person or persons as they would be treated in that specific detention centre. Really not hard if you think about it, is it? When one writes a Bill, it is best to not use words that don't exist in any language. I speak English, I knew what you were suggesting. A non-native English speaking citizen might not understand what you are trying to suggest. And the correct spelling is Guantanamo, with no accent.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 3, 2014 12:05:58 GMT -6
And the correct spelling in Spanish, the official language of Cuba, is "Guantánamo".
Now, if you will, let us quit our little dance and turn to more useful matters: For example thoughts, nose wrinkles and improvement suggestions for this amendment?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Mar 3, 2014 12:17:44 GMT -6
And the correct spelling in Spanish, the official language of Cuba, is "Guantánamo". Now, if you will, let us quit our little dance and turn to more useful matters: For example thoughts, nose wrinkles and improvement suggestions for this amendment? Either use English, Spanish, Latin, or Talossan - keep in simple. I have no suggestions for this Amendment, in that I am wholly against it. I see no need to extend the OrgLaw and the Covenants to non-citizens. This is an attempt to rectify a wrong that does not exist. I will be voting against it, no matter what language you use.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Mar 3, 2014 12:27:08 GMT -6
And the correct spelling in Spanish, the official language of Cuba, is "Guantánamo". If you're going for proper Spanish, rather than an anglicised place name, then you misspelled Bahía (and omitted de, and got the word order wrong).
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 3, 2014 12:36:27 GMT -6
I'm still very unsure about your new Third Covenant. At minimum, the language is sloppy, because the last sentence is ambiguous - "notwithstanding" what? This should be rephrased so it is perfectly clear. And of course, I still am of the opinion that the Ziu, if it should so choose, should be allowed to say that non-citizens are not permitted to select Members of Cosa. We might not want to pass that law, but it should be organic to pass it, if we decide that we want to.
I like the change to the Fourth Covenant.
I am curious about the changes to the Fifth Covenant. While I do agree that the death penalty should not be permitted, it seems curious to me that you include this change here. That is a serious change and rather different than the rest of the bill, which attempts to extend some of the Covenants to the rest of the world. This bill would need to be approved by supermajorities of both the Ziu and citizenry - are you perhaps being overconfident in estimating how many people might oppose these two purposes? If only sixteen percent of people object to eliminating the death penalty (for whatever reason) and only sixteen percent oppose other aspects of this bill (like I do), then this change will fail. Maybe this is too ambitious.
I object in strong terms to the change in the Seventh Covenant. No one should be able to be convicted of an ex post facto international crime, either. We should not strip that protection from our citizens.
I object in absolutely the strongest terms to the changes to the Eighth Covenant, which would extend to non-citizens an unabridgable freedom to influence our political processes.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 3, 2014 13:26:16 GMT -6
I'm still very unsure about your new Third Covenant. At minimum, the language is sloppy, because the last sentence is ambiguous - "notwithstanding" what? This should be rephrased so it is perfectly clear. And of course, I still am of the opinion that the Ziu, if it should so choose, should be allowed to say that non-citizens are not permitted to select Members of Cosa. We might not want to pass that law, but it should be organic to pass it, if we decide that we want to. I like the change to the Fourth Covenant. I am curious about the changes to the Fifth Covenant. While I do agree that the death penalty should not be permitted, it seems curious to me that you include this change here. That is a serious change and rather different than the rest of the bill, which attempts to extend some of the Covenants to the rest of the world. This bill would need to be approved by supermajorities of both the Ziu and citizenry - are you perhaps being overconfident in estimating how many people might oppose these two purposes? If only sixteen percent of people object to eliminating the death penalty (for whatever reason) and only sixteen percent oppose other aspects of this bill (like I do), then this change will fail. Maybe this is too ambitious. I object in strong terms to the change in the Seventh Covenant. No one should be able to be convicted of an ex post facto international crime, either. We should not strip that protection from our citizens. I object in absolutely the strongest terms to the changes to the Eighth Covenant, which would extend to non-citizens an unabridgable freedom to influence our political processes. 3rd Covenant: How about "notwithstanding this limitation"? The change to the fourth covenant is very minimal, indeed. I might indeed introduce another act for the Fifth Covenant, relating to the death penalty. I don't understand your objection to the change in the 7th Cov. It does not create any ex post facto-convictability, at least I am not able to see such an effect when I strike out "international law", which is what I've done. It just hinders courts from twisting the sentence's meaning into justifying that someone may be, as previously outlined, convicted under the law of Lala-Land, for dancing with your shoes on, because in Lala-Land, dancing with your shoes on constitutes a crime. So, is it your view, then, that I am not allowed to fly to any other country and express my political views? For example, I am a German citizen and I decide that the youth employment situation in Spain is bad. I fly to Spain, in order to take part in the demonstrations. Should this right of mine, my freedom of (political) expression and affiliation, be prohibited?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 3, 2014 13:50:57 GMT -6
If we were to agree to the Geneva Convention on Monkeys or something, and that convention made it a crime to kill a monkey, that that should only be a crime if it was a crime at the time the act was committed. This is the purpose of that provision - to stop ex post facto international laws, too. You seem to think, it seems, that this covenant makes all international law into our law, but I don't see how it can be read that way.
As to the Eighth Covenant change, no I don't think that should be prohibited. But if the Ziu wanted to pass a law saying that contributions to Talossan political parties must be capped by law at five thousand louise per person, the Ziu should have that ability, for example.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 3, 2014 14:46:34 GMT -6
Very well then, could we agree upon "(...) under laws recognised in the Kingdom of Talossa", because I, for one, could indeed read this as "any internationally adapted law", but maybe it's just a non-native thing of mine.
I am afraid I'm a bit on a go-slow-and-weary mode today. Please explain to me how the Ziu can't have the ability to pass such a law, when I exchange "its citizens" with "any person"? Does the Ziu, at the moment, not have the ability to pass such a law that would apply to its citizens, but it only applies to non-citizens?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 3, 2014 15:18:28 GMT -6
Very well then, could we agree upon "(...) under laws recognised in the Kingdom of Talossa", because I, for one, could indeed read this as "any internationally adapted law", but maybe it's just a non-native thing of mine. I'm not sure what this would look like :S Where would that phrase go? Could you post a new version of this clause as you'd change it? I am afraid I'm a bit on a go-slow-and-weary mode today. Please explain to me how the Ziu can't have the ability to pass such a law, when I exchange "its citizens" with "any person"? Does the Ziu, at the moment, not have the ability to pass such a law that would apply to its citizens, but it only applies to non-citizens? The Ziu could not, currently, prohibit me from donating to a political party. If I wanted to help pay the RUMP registration fee, the Ziu couldn't say, "Sorry, only left-handed people get to contribute to parties." This is because that's part of political expression, and this Covenant forbids the banning or abridgment of such expression. And if this protection extended to non-citizens, then they too could claim Organic protection for donations, and the Ziu couldn't restrict that. But I think the Ziu should be able to pass a law saying that non-citizens cannot donate to political campaigns.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 4, 2014 18:24:14 GMT -6
WHEREAS the Organic Law, and especially, the Covenant of Rights have been designed for the protection of the people against the state and other people; and, WHEREAS it seems to be against any humanitarian reason that the Covenants are only guaranteed to Citizens of Talossa, but not eventual refugees we might get, or tourists, prospectives, or visitors; and, WHEREAS I would like to think that we have no policy of Guantánamobaying non-Talossan citizens when they commit any crime; now
THEREFORE the Ziu approves that the following changes to the Organic Law's Covenant of Rights be commended to the citizenry for ratification:
- THE PREAMBLE, which currently reads: The Covenant of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in them to all Talossan citizens, subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. These Covenants shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with Talossan custom and tradition, and with the aim in mind of preserving and enhancing the ethnic heritage of the Talossan nation and the peace, order, and good government for the Kingdom of Talossa.
shall be amended to read:
The Covenant of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in them to every person, subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. These Covenants shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with Talossan custom and tradition, and with the aim in mind of preserving and enhancing the ethnic heritage of the Talossan nation and the peace, order, and good government for the Kingdom of Talossa.
- THE THIRD COVENANT, which currently reads: Talossans have the right to peaceful assembly whether in private facilities or in the open air, provided that such assembly neither disrupts traffic or legal commercial activity, or unduly inconveniences people. Talossans have the right to freely organize political parties and other organizations, subject to their own laws of membership, and this right may not be abridged except with regards to organizations which advocate the use of violence or intimidation to attain political or other ends, or which seek to restrain any person or group of people from the exercise of their rights as granted under these Covenants.
shall be amended to read:
Every person has the right to peaceful assembly, whether in private facilities or in the open air, provided that such assembly neither disrupts traffic or legal commercial activity, nor unduly inconveniences people. Every person has the right to freely organise any kinds of organisations, subject to their own laws of membership, and this right may not be abridged except with regards to organisations which advocate the use of violence or intimidation to attain political or other ends, or which seek to restrain any person or group of people from the exercise of their rights as granted under these Covenants. However, political parties may only be registered and headed by Talossan citizens, in order to preserve the political power vested in the people of Talossa. Notwithstanding this limitation for the political parties, political parties are subject to their own laws of membership.
- THE FOURTH COVENANT, which currently reads: Under the principle that "A Man's Room is His Kingdom," the right of the people to privacy and security in their persons, homes, papers, correspondence, and property, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended. No person may be arrested or detained without a warrant issued by a judge, except in cases of flagrante delicto. No warrants shall be issued except on probable cause, and must particularly describe the place to be searched and the person or things to be seized. The right to privacy for public figures must be balanced by the public's right to know, in matters affecting politics, elections, campaigns, and governing. The intentional withholding of political information which reasonable voters might find helpful, profitable, or informative, violates the public's right to know.
shall be amended to read:
Under the principle that "A Man's Room is His Kingdom," any person's right to privacy and security in their persons, homes, papers, correspondence, and property, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended. No person may be arrested or detained without a warrant issued by a judge, except in cases of flagrante delicto. No warrants shall be issued except on probable cause, and must particularly describe the place to be searched and the person or things to be seized. The right to privacy for public figures must be balanced by the public's right to know, in matters affecting politics, elections, campaigns, and governing. The intentional withholding of political information which reasonable voters might find helpful, profitable, or informative, violates the public's right to know.
- THE FIFTH COVENANT, which currently reads: Any person charged with an offence shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and has the right to request information on his legal rights. No accused person shall be twice put in jeopardy of life, liberty, or property for the same offence, or without due process of law; nor shall any citizen be compelled in any criminal case to bear witness against himself. Excessive fines, and cruel and bizarre punishments, shall not be inflicted.
shall be amended to read:
Any person charged with an offence shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and has the right to request information on his legal rights. No accused person shall be twice put in jeopardy of life, liberty, or property for the same offence, or without due process of law; nor shall any person be compelled in any criminal case to bear witness against himself. Excessive fines, and cruel and bizarre punishments, shall not be inflicted.
- THE SEVENTH COVENANT, which currently reads: No person shall be found guilty on account of any act or omission, unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Talossan or international law, or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of civilized nations, as interpreted by Talossan courts in line with Talossan traditions and needs.
will be amended to read followingly, because international law does not apply to Talossa and convicting someone in a Talossan court of law because Lala-Land prohibits dancing with your shoes on is not cool:
No person shall be found guilty on account of any act or omission, unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Talossan law, or under an international law recognised by the Kingdom of Talossa, or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by the community of civilized nations, as interpreted by Talossan courts in line with Talossan traditions and needs.
- THE EIGHTH COVENANT, which currently reads: Talossa shall never tax nor purport to tax, unduly burden, outlaw or abridge for its citizens any right to acts of: peaceful assembly; religious worship or affiliation; political speech or expression or affiliation; religious or historical or scientific or philosophical belief; abortion (being the freely conscious ability for a woman to make a determination on the continuation of her pregnancy); consensual sexual activity (between two consenting people of an age of responsibility); contraception; marriage (between consenting adults regardless of their sex, unless they are consanguineous up to the fourth degree of relationship), civil unions (and equivalents); divorce; adoption; advance health care directives; attempted suicide; euthanasia; the reading of any book; and the writing or use of any language. Neither shall any person be made to answer in any Talossan court for the alleged, admitted, or actual violation of any foreign law restricting or denying any right to or forbidding any act enumerated above.
shall be amended to read:
Talossa shall never tax nor purport to tax, unduly burden, outlaw or abridge for any person any right to acts of: peaceful assembly; religious worship or affiliation; political speech or expression or affiliation; religious or historical or scientific or philosophical belief; abortion (being the freely conscious ability for a woman to make a determination on the continuation of her pregnancy); consensual sexual activity (between two consenting people of an age of responsibility); contraception; marriage (between consenting adults regardless of their sex, unless they are consanguineous up to the fourth degree of relationship), civil unions (and equivalents); divorce; adoption; advance health care directives; attempted suicide; euthanasia; the reading of any book; and the writing or use of any language. Neither shall any person be made to answer in any Talossan court for the alleged, admitted, or actual violation of any foreign law restricting or denying any right to or forbidding any act enumerated above.
Uréu q'estadra så: Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun (MC / MRPT)
Can you live with the 3rd and 7th Covenants as they stand now? If so, there only remains the issue with the 8th Covenant, together with one question: Do we want to forbid the right of any man to express their political views because they may donate to a Talossan party, thus lobbying them maybe to the detriment of Talossa, or is this freedom of political expression dearer to us than such a possibility? If the latter, how can we still guarantee these rights to non-citizens, without endangering the distortion of Talossan politics and lobbying from outside?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 4, 2014 20:59:16 GMT -6
Your new 3rd Covenant would grant to non-citizens the right to form political lobbying groups to influence our processes, which ties into my concern with your new 8th Covenant.
On the 8th, no, I don't think we want to forbid anyone from donating to express their political views. But neither do I think that non-citizens should have an absolute Organic protection from regulation of that sort of behavior. But remember: just because non-citizens aren't afforded a Covenant, doesn't mean that this is actually forbidden! Right now, there's no law against a non-citizen donating five, five hundred, or five thousand louise to the MRPT - we have no regulations to stop that and no mechanism to track it. It's not a problem, and probably won't be a problem for a long time. But if it did become a problem, I want to be able to pass a law to regulate it!
Your changes to the 7th Covenant seem unnecessary but fine to me now, so I don't object.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 5, 2014 7:43:21 GMT -6
Talossa shall never tax nor purport to tax, unduly burden, outlaw or abridge for any person any right to acts of: peaceful assembly; religious worship or affiliation; political speech or expression or affiliation; religious or historical or scientific or philosophical belief; abortion (being the freely conscious ability for a woman to make a determination on the continuation of her pregnancy); consensual sexual activity (between two consenting people of an age of responsibility); contraception; marriage (between consenting adults regardless of their sex, unless they are consanguineous up to the fourth degree of relationship), civil unions (and equivalents); divorce; adoption; advance health care directives; attempted suicide; euthanasia; the reading of any book; and the writing or use of any language. Neither shall any person be made to answer in any Talossan court for the alleged, admitted, or actual violation of any foreign law restricting or denying any right to or forbidding any act enumerated above.
to
Talossa shall never tax nor purport to tax, unduly burden, outlaw or abridge for any person any right to acts of: peaceful assembly; religious worship or affiliation; political speech or expression or affiliation, save pecuniary manners of expression made by non-citizens relating to political affairs; religious or historical or scientific or philosophical belief; abortion (being the freely conscious ability for a woman to make a determination on the continuation of her pregnancy); consensual sexual activity (between two consenting people of an age of responsibility); contraception; marriage (between consenting adults regardless of their sex, unless they are consanguineous up to the fourth degree of relationship), civil unions (and equivalents); divorce; adoption; advance health care directives; attempted suicide; euthanasia; the reading of any book; and the writing or use of any language. Neither shall any person be made to answer in any Talossan court for the alleged, admitted, or actual violation of any foreign law restricting or denying any right to or forbidding any act enumerated above.
Something like that good?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 5, 2014 10:06:36 GMT -6
That seems really convoluted. Why not just separate out political speech or expression or affiliation from the list? Off the top of my head:
Talossa shall never tax nor purport to tax, unduly burden, outlaw or abridge for any person any right to acts of: peaceful assembly; religious worship or affiliation; religious or historical or scientific or philosophical belief; abortion (being the freely conscious ability for a woman to make a determination on the continuation of her pregnancy); consensual sexual activity (between two consenting people of an age of responsibility); contraception; marriage (between consenting adults regardless of their sex, unless they are consanguineous up to the fourth degree of relationship), civil unions (and equivalents); divorce; adoption; advance health care directives; attempted suicide; euthanasia; the reading of any book; and the writing or use of any language. Talossan citizens, additionally, shall have the right to political speech or expression or affiliation, and this right shall not be taxed, unduly burdened, outlawed, or abridged. Neither shall any person be made to answer in any Talossan court for the alleged, admitted, or actual violation of any foreign law restricting or denying any right to or forbidding any act enumerated above.
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