Óïn Ursüm
Posts: 1,032
Talossan Since: 3-10-2009
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Post by Óïn Ursüm on Jan 19, 2013 3:52:34 GMT -6
The law I can find governing the College of Arms are, firstly, 34RZ13:
Then 35RZ24:
No mention of oaths here (except the impication from the OrgLaw that the King be the 'fount of honour', but he is given that designation by law, rather than by individual contracts with his subjects). In my view, under a constitutional monarchy, heraldry should be viewed as a service of the state rather than something bestowed by the personal grace of His Majesty.
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Jan 19, 2013 4:01:47 GMT -6
If we want to strengthen Talossa, making it attractive for all would-be Talossans is a good thing. If both monarchists and republican can get a Talossa that they like and love, we are all winners. Being inflexible, vindictive, and stubborn brings conflicts to a critical point where things shatter.
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Post by Iudas Levì Bentxamì on Jan 19, 2013 9:03:08 GMT -6
I see no conflict between accepting arms and refraining from swearing allegiance. So yes, I should. I do. If you refuse to return the Oath as it stands now, and if you refuse to swear Allegiance to the King - Then I will refuse ask the SKA, and then the King to grant you this CoA. You don't get to have it both ways. As you will. You only do your duty as you see it. And though I do not agree, and see no hypocrisy in my actions, evidently you do. While I've got the feeling you need to remove a plank from your eye before you go for the splinter in mine, I'm not the Dean of the College of Arms. Since you've got the weight to throw around, you get to make the call. I thank Hooligan (SKA/RLH) for his efforts on my behalf and hope that you apologize for wasting his time on this. I'd ask the same courtesy for me, but your passive-aggressive actions recently and tendency towards bullying newer Talossans indicates that's a fool's errand. Good day to you.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jan 19, 2013 9:34:19 GMT -6
I find it interesting that the Squirrel King of Arms, the HEAD of the Royal College, designed the arms for S:reu Benjamini yet the Dean refuses to acknowledge them. Which one is in charge? Oh yeah, the SKA is. S:reu Benjamini, please do not despair as I am hopeful that despite the fact you didn't take the oath (neither here nor there and the College is not the one to be concerned with that as we are mandated to take up arms requests for citizens and you are a citizen) the SKA will still promote your cause to the King.
- The Fulbright Fellow
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 19, 2013 9:39:52 GMT -6
I find it interesting that the Squirrel King of Arms, the HEAD of the Royal College, designed the arms for S:reu Benjamini yet the Dean refuses to acknowledge them. Which one is in charge? Oh yeah, the SKA is. S:reu Benjamini, please do not despair as I am hopeful that despite the fact you didn't take the oath (neither here nor there and the College is not the one to be concerned with that as we are mandated to take up arms requests for citizens and you are a citizen) the SKA will still promote your cause to the King. - The Fulbright Fellow And I probably will be overturned - and I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with people that are not members of the College telling me that I am not allowed to have an opinion. I also have a problem when people tie my opinions to a political party. I also have a problem when people outside of the College suggest I should resign my office because of my opinion. I have a problem when people fail to realize that the College is overseen by the King , not by the Ziu, Politicians, or Politics. I have a problem that people that are not members of the College want to interpret and dictate the Rules of the College. That, I will not apologize for.
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Post by Iudas Levì Bentxamì on Jan 19, 2013 11:40:24 GMT -6
As I said. You only do your duty as you see it, just as SoS Canun did in the conflict over my citizenship and oath. And then it was sorted by proper legal authorities. Freedom of conscience is one of the most precious things we have.
The trouble with hardcore republican politics (and this isn't limited to Talossa) is that it tends to run on an ideological "bread and circus" mentality. Almost nothing, down to and including the ham sandwich I had for lunch, can be considered apolitical... and given that Republican politics is driven by faction, it is inseparable from partisanship.
Either Dean Preston's decision will be overturned, or it will not. If it is, I will gratefully bear the arms granted by the king. If it is not, I will continue to bear my arms of protest. The Dean and I disagree, and this is a disagreement between the two of us. The RUMP, the ZRT, the Ziu, and whomever else aren't involved.
So, while I appreciate interference on my behalf in this case, please let it be. This is between the Dean and myself... and the King and Squirrel King at Arms, if they so choose to get involved.
So, Dean Preston, could you explain to me the conflict that you see?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 19, 2013 14:05:05 GMT -6
Thank you, S:reu Bentxami. I appreciate your previous comment.
Now, my reasoning is as follows.
When the King grants the Coat of Arms, he does it by a Proclamation. That Proclamation comes from the Royal Talossan College of Arms.
Part of the Proclamation reads as follows:
WHEREAS We derive from Our Royal grace and favour both the commission and the power to confer achievements of arms as a gift from Us, and to issue in such matters a Royal proclamation with the Great Seal of the Kingdom; and
WHEREAS We, in Our innate Royal power and grace, have always been inclined to provide for the subjects of the Kingdom of Talossa and to confer unto Our loyal subjects Royal favours on the feast days of the Kingdom, and
...
THEREFORE, with the Royal powers cited above...
The Oath reads:
From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty, allegiance, and pious fidelity to the Kingdom of Talossa, to her sovereign King, and to His Majesty's government. I solemnly affirm that I will support and uphold the Organic Law of the Kingdom of Talossa, defend the realm against all enemies, faithfully observe its laws, respect the rights and freedoms of all my fellow citizens, fulfill all my duties and obligations as a Talossan, and humbly appreciate the benefits granted unto me by my King, most especially when those benefits take the form of Talossan currency.
In your comments about the Oath, you made these statements:
"So am I not a citizen either since I scratched the bit about the King from my oath? "
"I wasn't comfortable swearing to a specific monarch."
My opinion is that if you don't want to swear an oath to a Monarch, or the King- then you should not ask that same person for a Royal Coat of Arms. To me, you deny on one hand that you deny your loyalty, allegiance, and pious fidelity to the sovereign King , but on the other hand, you want a gift from that same person.
I believe this is a contradiction. If you reject the concept of a Monarchy and a Royal House, then you should also reject the trappings that goes along with that Monarchy and Royal House.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 19, 2013 15:47:11 GMT -6
You should also seek honorary membership in the ZRT. You're doing a much better job of undermining the monarchy than they are. I'm hurt. ;D Seriously - this is why I'm not currently pursuing my own request for arms. If one republican is denied, we should all refuse to bear arms.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on Jan 19, 2013 18:43:00 GMT -6
I also have a problem when people tie my opinions to a political party. But the RUMP says that whoever votes for it is a member. Therefore, whatever you say in a political capacity (as a RUMP voter) is the RUMP's problem. In contrast, the ZRT is only responsible for what its actual members say.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 19, 2013 19:31:43 GMT -6
I also have a problem when people tie my opinions to a political party. But the RUMP says that whoever votes for it is a member. Therefore, whatever you say in a political capacity (as a RUMP voter) is the RUMP's problem. In contrast, the ZRT is only responsible for what its actual members say. Dame Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN - But I do NOT let political opinions affect my work in the College. Please take notes, and adjust your comments accordingly.
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Jan 19, 2013 21:43:35 GMT -6
The Royal College of Arms is not the place for discussion of political parties.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Jan 20, 2013 6:54:31 GMT -6
If the King wishes to decorate an ardent republican thus, then let him, it won't change anything.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that there are examples of republicans being knighted outside of Talossa. Sir Graham Watson, a republican Liberal Democrat MEP was knighted a couple of years ago.
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Post by Iudas Levì Bentxamì on Jan 20, 2013 9:09:20 GMT -6
OY folks! There's a time and a place for everything, but my request for arms is degenerating into Michael Moore's Oscar Acceptance speech. This isn't about the RUMP and the ZRT, and I'm beginning to lose patience with being used as a football in an attempt to score points.
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Post by Béneditsch Ardpresteir, O.SPM. on Jan 20, 2013 10:23:44 GMT -6
If the King wishes to decorate an ardent republican thus, then let him, it won't change anything. EDIT: Forgot to mention that there are examples of republicans being knighted outside of Talossa. Sir Graham Watson, a republican Liberal Democrat MEP was knighted a couple of years ago. Our King is also a nice fellow... after all, it was he who Knighted the former Republican President although she chooses not to write 'Dame'.
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Post by Béneditsch Ardpresteir, O.SPM. on Jan 20, 2013 14:36:33 GMT -6
Your display of Arms are in vioation of Wittiquette Rule 15
15: No unauthorized use of heraldic or armorial designs or titles of chivalry. If you are a citizen, you may set your Avatar and Personal Text to show various sorts of pictures and to display almost any short piece of text. (Obviously, you mustn’t use an obscene or offensive Avatar or Personal Text.) In general, you can set these fields however you want to, but there are three particular exceptions to the general rule. First, prospective citizens may not modify their Avatar or other profile information in any way. Second, non-citizen guests must have their Avatar set to display a Passport, and their Personal Text set to something like “Guest”. And third – this is important – you may use no armorial display, no coat of arms or heraldic device of any kind, as your Avatar, unless it has been granted to you by the King of Talossa, or unless you have the legitimate right to display the device in some foreign country and have duly registered it with the College of Arms. (But any citizen may use the Talossan flag as his Avatar.) Finally, you may not use any titles, ranks, or honours of nobility and chivalry in your descriptive text, unless those titles, ranks, or honours have been granted by the King of Talossa, or you have some other legitimate right to them, and that right has been recognized by the Royal Talossan College of Arms.
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