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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 12:17:13 GMT -6
As for Andy's wish to "undo" his oath, let's assume that he didn't breach it, then let him alter his oath and let's be done with it. No one is stopping him. If he wants to proclaim that his new oath is the better oath, that is his individual freedom. But no one is going to re administer the oath and declare his old oath null and void. I'm hard pressed to find a country that doesn't have an oath of citizenship for immigrants. I'm even more hard pressed to find a country that allows individual immigrants to rewrite their own oath based upon which parts of it they are willing to accept. In the United States, a person cannot smoke under the age of 18. During my visit to Austria, I noted signs indicating that smoking was not permitted by anyone under 16. So I suppose there are people in Austria who, as we speak, are violating the laws of some foreign country they may never have even visited. Talossa set the voting age at 14. So, one can swear the oath of citizenship at 14. The laws of Germany do not apply to this situation any more than the laws of the United States apply to smoking in Austria. |
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 11, 2013 12:24:15 GMT -6
And as now there are better ways to find out if applicants for the Talossan Citizensship are still willing to join Talossa after two weeks, let's get rid of the compulsory swearing. It's imposing too much of a burden on their shoulders, especially if they nodded far too quickly just because they desperately wanted to join Talossa instantly. I would disagree with this. Just as the USA and Canada ask you to take an Oath before you become a citizen, so should Talossa. It's part Pomp and Ceremony, but I also feel it should be a check on - "Do you really want to do this?" Once an Immigrant returns that Oath - then their avatar changes, their status changes, and they can apply for a Coat Of Arms, along with other perks of Citizenry. It's as if the person is crossing a threshold , and stepping into the country as an equal with the others already there. They have made it known that they want to join us, and have made us a promise. I think we do need an Oath, so that we can formally welcome them as being a Citizen on a precise moment in time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 12:26:40 GMT -6
And as now there are better ways to find out if applicants for the Talossan Citizensship are still willing to join Talossa after two weeks, let's get rid of the compulsory swearing. It's imposing too much of a burden on their shoulders, especially if they nodded far too quickly just because they desperately wanted to join Talossa instantly. I would disagree with this. Just as the USA and Canada ask you to take an Oath before you become a citizen, so should Talossa. It's part Pomp and Ceremony, but I also feel it should be a check on - "Do you really want to do this?" Once an Immigrant returns that Oath - then their avatar changes, their status changes, and they can apply for a Coat Of Arms, along with other perks of Citizenry. It's as if the person is crossing a threshold , and stepping into the country as an equal with the others already there. They have made it known that they want to join us, and have made us a promise. I think we do need an Oath, so that we can formally welcome them as being a Citizen on a precise moment in time. Germany also requires one to sign an oath of allegiance to the Constitution. I haven't found any source indicating immigrants can cross out the parts that they are not interested in or that they can renounce their oath later on and go back to swear their own oath. |
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jan 11, 2013 12:27:59 GMT -6
I'm hard pressed to find a country that doesn't have an oath of citizenship for immigrants. I'm even more hard pressed to find a country that allows individual immigrants to rewrite their own oath based upon which parts of it they are willing to accept. At the risk of unnerving you by mentioning this as an example, Germany isn't asking for an oath. Immigrants will have to pass a test instead. That is as debatable as any other option, but there is no compulsory swearing of an oath, at least. Erm. It wasn't my intention to say that Talossa has to follow anything but the Talossan law. Mentioning the law of Germany was meant to be an example of how things like taking an oath can be seen differently. Even if a voting age of 14 doesn't necessarily indicate that all other "legal ages" are set to 14 as well.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 12:30:30 GMT -6
At the risk of unnerving you by mentioning this as an example, Germany isn't asking for an oath. Immigrants will have to pass a test instead. That is as debatable as any other option, but there is no compulsory swearing of an oath, at least. In the United States, a person cannot smoke under the age of 18. During my visit to Austria, I noted signs indicating that smoking was not permitted by anyone under 16. So I suppose there are people in Austria who, as we speak, are violating the laws of some foreign country they may never have even visited. Talossa set the voting age at 14. So, one can swear the oath of citizenship at 14. The laws of Germany do not apply to this situation any more than the laws of the United States apply to smoking in Austria. Erm. It wasn't my intention to say that Talossa has to follow anything but the Talossan law. Mentioning the law of Germany was meant to be an example of how things like taking an oath can be seen differently. Even if a voting age of 14 doesn't necessarily indicate that all other "legal ages" are set to 14 as well. Then can you clarify why this article mentions signing an oath of allegiance to the constitution? |
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jan 11, 2013 12:34:15 GMT -6
Germany also requires one to sign an oath of allegiance to the Constitution. I haven't found any source indicating immigrants can cross out the parts that they are not interested in or that they can renounce their oath later on and go back to swear their own oath. This would be new. The CDU wanted to introduce this in 2004, but it didn't sail through. Apparently 3 federation states are requiring the oath, though, since 2006 (informations based on a quick-hack google search and the memory of this old newspaper-reading West German here). |
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jan 11, 2013 12:40:08 GMT -6
State of Baden-Württemberg, singlehanded CDU government, 2005. This government has been voted out of office in the mean time. The Greens are in command over there now, and they for sure will not propose laws that are discriminating religious minorities when it comes to immigration. |
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 11, 2013 12:40:34 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 12:42:02 GMT -6
Germany also requires one to sign an oath of allegiance to the Constitution. I haven't found any source indicating immigrants can cross out the parts that they are not interested in or that they can renounce their oath later on and go back to swear their own oath. This would be new. The CDU wanted to introduce this in 2004, but it didn't sail through. Apparently 3 federation states are requiring the oath, though, since 2006 (informations based on a quick-hack google search and the memory of this old newspaper-reading West German here). I was also reading this www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Gesetzestexte/EN/Staatsangehoerigkeitsgesetz_englisch.pdf?__blob=publicationFileWhich says a naturalized citizen must "confirm his or her commitment to a free democratic constitutional system" which still sounds like, even if we don't call it an oath, you have to otherwise attest to your allegiance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 12:43:08 GMT -6
I see, Mick. Apparently both of us can pull wikipedia links to buttress our arguments. Touché.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 11, 2013 12:46:34 GMT -6
I see, Mick. Apparently both of us can pull wikipedia links to buttress our arguments. Touché. (chuckles) |
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on Jan 11, 2013 13:04:35 GMT -6
AFAIK, that is some sort of an indirect confirmation. You must not have a file that indicates that you have been engaged in crimes against the constitutional order of the Federal Republic of Germany. Crimethinking doesn't count, so far... blowing up the Bundestag building in Berlin would. |
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Post by Ceváglh Scurznicol on Jan 11, 2013 13:15:41 GMT -6
Perhaps Andy could undo the oath if he manages to say the oath completely backwards, phoneme by phoneme.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Jan 11, 2013 13:17:55 GMT -6
Perhaps Andy could undo the oath if he manages to say the oath completely backwards, phoneme by phoneme. I think that would summon Satan. Or Mad King Ben. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 14:22:02 GMT -6
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"Ceterum censeo republicam proclamandum esse."