[ROUND THREE] Provincial Name Change

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2013 15:48:36 GMT -6 Sarac'h Txilvertescu said:

Developing culture? Are we not Talossan? Makes more sense to me if we were to embrace that as opposed to coming off like a low rent Poughkeepsie Olive Garden.

I've said this before, do whatever you want.

I resigned as Maestro so that my views would not obstruct the will of the people. So if that's what you all want, do it. That's what I said when I, as you say, "howled blue murder."

So I'm not sure what you want from me? I don't agree with you. I will likely never agree with you. So, I stepped aside so that the will of the majority can make the judgment call. What do you want from me? Why does my name keep coming up as part of this damn debate? I am trying to leave it behind.

[Ián B. Anglatzarâ]

Since every non-Benitan in the world is speaking up here, let's add a few words. I wasn't going to, but, ah well.

I think the Admiral is correct that names of provinces are serious things and that seniority and experience counts. Newer citizens should listen to what the old-timers have to say in matters such as these. They certainly don't have a veto, but if provinces were to change their names once a year, it would be farcical.

I also think that it's ridiculous to claim that Benito could be "any Benito." The province was called Mussolini, and then changed to Benito. Say what you will, but it's quite disingenious to claim that it could be "any Benito." I understand it was a compromise, a step on the road to distance the province from its most ghastly connotations in the eyes of outsiders, but it's the same ol' Italian dictator.

[Iason Bitxichë Taiwos]

I was wondering if Mad King Bens interest in Mussolini was due in part to their sharing a name ("Ben"). I had a pal who developed an obsession with Chairman Mao just for that reason (his name was Chair Fitzsimmons.)
Sorry for that terrible joke, but this thread is getting too unpleasant. Here's some alternate theories:
Ben named the province after a Japanese exchange student he became friendly with. The kids name was Ben Ito.
"Been neato" is a common expression in the Milwaukee area. "You having a good time?" "Yeah, its been neato."
Don't buy those? We could just become the Province That Dare Not Speak Its Name. The "B" word. "The Province so nice they dropped all the letters from its name except the first one." Then we could call ourselves "Bee-yotches". New citizens would be begging to be assigned to our province in hopes of finding out what "B" really stands for.
In all seriousness, I see valid points coming from both sides of this issue. For my part, I'm totally comfortable being a Benitian. I also wonder why, when the name "Benito" is held in such contempt by Italians everywhere, that a google search revealed several pizza parlours and Italian restaraunts called "Benitos". (Wonder if "fettucini ala fascism" is on any of the menus...)
(Alternately, we could say "Benito, formerly called Juarez" and hope no newbies bother to investigate...?)

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Can a student of ancient Talossan history butt in here?

Mussolini Province was, in fact, named after "Benito Mussolini High School", KR1's name for Riverside High School which is in the province. Leftist forces in the pre-internet Kingdom often tried to get it changed to "Riverside Province" for that reason. But it is also a strong historical fact that KR1 was strongly attracted to fascist aesthetics and the personalities of fascist and other authoritarian dictators. Look at his photograph on the cover of the Big Thick History if you don't believe me.

The fascist element of Talossan tradition is one that I think we should reject, but it's disingenuous to tell the people who agree with that that it's "not necessarily that Benito", and it's doubly disingenuous to suggest that we hide or censor history. This province was Mussolini Province, that's the plain fact. If you want to reject it, reject it upfront and wholeheartedly, not half-assedly and shamefacedly.

[Iustì Carlüs Canun]

Jan 5, 2013 18:54:14 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Mussolini Province was, in fact, named after "Benito Mussolini High School", KR1's name for Riverside High School which is in the province.

This is why we need to keep it as-is, because that's a cool foundation story.

Although if we wanted to keep the apparent Italian ("low-rent Poughkeepsie Olive Garden" is the most amusing thing I've read in a while) theme, we could call it Vittorio Province, or Dante Province (personally, I like that one).

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

I need to apologize to all the Citizens of this Province.

Y'all can all it what ever you want. It's your Province, and it's none of my business what you call it.

I was out of line, and should have kept my thoughts to myself. Mea Culpa.

Now, I'm going back to M-M , and try and add some more vowels to our Provincial name.

[Vitxalmour Conductour]

Jan 5, 2013 15:25:58 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

What I opposed was the scrapping of the entire culture that has been developing which everyone seems to be lumping in with the provincial name change.

Who is this "everybody"?

EM Vürinalt is the only one I ever saw espouse any sort of culture scrapping plan:

Jul 17, 2012 0:40:29 GMT -6 EM Vürinalt said:

Jul 16, 2012 19:45:53 GMT -6 Suischadna Margreta Blasiüs said:

I have to admit that I am not entirely clear on the whole "Italian" association thing, but I don't expect anyone to go into the long, sordid history of it for my benefit.

Our province was originally named "Mussolini" because our crazy ex-King Ben apparently 'thought it sounded nice.' Now, when you learn about Ben and people's views of him, he seemed to act in a very authoritarian manner, and, therefore, the de facto honoring of the most famous Mussolini, Benito Mussolini of the fascist Italian state, had a certain appreciation beyond just the sounds of the name.

About 4 years ago, myself and some others in the province thought enough was enough- we are done honoring foreign dictators. Not wanting to remove ourselves completely from the past, we changed our name to Benito.

Due to the decades long association of our province with All Things Italian, we think we have some amount of italianized Talossan culture.

This is, of course, not true. We can't have a culture without people being involved. And we've never had people involved. So it's time to usher in an entirely new culture with a full name change, breaking away from our dictator-inspired Italian 'heritage' and embracing something a little more benign and a little more representative of our people and wishes for the future.

Jul 16, 2012 20:13:48 GMT -6 Ceváglh Scurznicol said:

Yes, but the new connection to Benedetto XVI would serve to exorcise the old connections and make them harmless.

People are still going to see 'Ben' and think 1)Beninto Mussolini, 2) Crazy King Ben. It doesn't matter that -edetto is attached to the end.

Plus, I think a lot of citizens would take offense at us honoring a both a foreign ruler and religious leader.

Flip Molinar made a remark that could be taken as general support:

Jul 17, 2012 12:24:20 GMT -6 Flip Molinar said:

Gut gesagt! Der Vorzeit (und es ist wirklich Altertum) ist egal, die Zukunft ist alles dass wichtig ist.

Well said! Antiquity (and it's really ancient history) matters not. The future is the only important thing.

Suischadna Margreta Blasiüs made a comment of support, but the wording focuses on the name issue:

Jul 17, 2012 14:10:40 GMT -6 Suischadna Margreta Blasiüs said:

Hear, Hear EM Vurinalt! Well said! Let's get more folks involved and get rid of evil connotations from evil dictators. (How many more times can I use "evil" in a sentence, i wonder?)

Mr. Molinar: as a CeR Monarchist and Traditionalist, I would only take issue and say that antiquity *does* matter, but that we should not be honoring a bad dude with the name of our blessed province.

That's 1 or 2 votes for culture scrapping. Possibly a third. And the two likely ones were around when you made your last change, so it's not the new kids trying to undermine your culture.

Barring that single post, everything was solely about the name. There weren't even that many really in to the whole name change thing. Of the 9 or so more vocal contributers to the threads, 1 was you, 2 expressed mostly indifference to the whole idea, and 2 weren't Benitian.

It was a vocal minority talking about a name change, not a teeming revolt against Benitian culture.

Feel free to vocally, insistently and rigidly oppose a name change. You have that right and your position should be respected. But don't make it about what it isn't. And especially don't proclaim EM Vürinalt to be everybody. I can personally assure you that at the very least Iason and I are not EM Vürinalt. Not that I've got anything against EM Vürinalt, I'm just not EM Vürinalt.

[Eiric S. Börnatfiglheu]

But are you signing documents "Washington Irving?"

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

I'm signing them "R. O. Shipman, Group Chaplain".

[Tric'hard Carschaleir]

As an Italian and a citizen of Benito, I feel the need to intervene in this discussion, and explain in depth why I think it's a good idea to change the province's name regardless of its history.
When I talk to my friends about Talossa (and believe me, I do it quite often), the moment I dread the most is when I tell them which province I'm from, because, invariably, the question that immediately ensues is "what, like Mussolini?", and then I have to make up some excuse and explain that it doesn't refer to him. Of course it doesn't help that the province is built to be the "Italian" province of Talossa. I don't expect many people to really understand this, because many of you, especially the majority of the population that comes from America, have been very lucky in that you never had to deal with something like fascism, and your recent history is not marred by the shame of having been oppressed or worse: having been the "bad guys". I grew up in a country where fascism is collectively remembered as the worst shame ever to stain the nation's face, and I often had to sit through conferences held by resistance fighters while I was in primary school where they told us about the horrors that fascist oppression brought to our country. In Italy, even the suspicion of a link to fascism incites revulsion, and rightly so, for the scars of what has arguably been the worst period in our recent history are not yet fully healed. As you can imagine, many people whom I've talked to about Talossa feel a little put off by the name of the province, and it is a constant source of embarassment to me when I have to explain to them why's it called the way it is. It is difficult to pique someone's interest in something, when that something is named after who they feel is the worst person ever to have called himself an Italian. And what's even worse is that making up a different reason to explain the name of the province is very difficult, because the name Benito doesn't exist anymore. Just like Hitler forever ruined the swastika as a symbol of the sun, the name Benito has all but disappeared in Italy and in much of Europe. Nobody would even dream of calling their son Benito in my country, so powerful is the association between that name and the duce. So, as you can imagine, I can't claim that the province was named after someone else, and I absolutely can't tell them that what it was called before, because then the link would be more than evident.
And I have to admit that I myself was taken aback by the name of the province when I looked into Talossa for the first time, and for a moment there I almost decided not to ask for citizenship, but I finally decided that the change of name demonstrated goodwill on the part of Talossans to distance themselves from the name of Mussolini, and I decided to apply. As you can plainly see, I have not regretted it.
I think changing the name of our beloved province not only demonstrates goodwill and a progressive spirit, but it may also open the road to new Italian citizens that have heretofore been turned away by the unfortunate implications of the name.
Tradition sometimes must change for everyone to be happy.

[Moritz Fernaodescu]

^ This.
Although I agree with every point I really had no idea that Mussolini was still such a touchy subject in Italy but I do quite understand yes. I think many Spaniards, Catalans, Basques etc. including me would think for a second time before asking for Talossan citizenship if there was a province named after the dic(k)tator Francisco Franco.
And it's plain nonsense to justify the name 'Benito'. We aren't stupid, nor are other people.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Newer citizens might not remember that the most prominent Italian citizen in the KR1 era was a fellow who was Seneschál during 1997... and was a member of the Alleanza Nazionale, the "post"-fascists. So obviously he had no problem with Mussolini Province.

[Tric'hard Carschaleir]

Newer citizens might not remember that the most prominent Italian citizen in the KR1 era was a fellow who was Seneschál during 1997... and was a member of the Alleanza Nazionale, the "post"-fascists. So obviously he had no problem with Mussolini Province.

Wouldn't it be better if we were able to enroll citizens from other spheres other than the political fringes? I mean, that's like calling a province "Hitler" and then saying that a Seneschal was a German neo-nazi skinhead, so obviously he had no problem with Hitler Province, while most Germans actually feel repulsed by Talossa because it enshrines what they consider to be their worst national shame.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Well, that's the point. Former King Robert was affectionate towards fascism, mainly Italian but also Hungarian and Romanian. That's a part of our history. We should explicitly renounce it.