RUMP Campaign Underway

[Benedict Stamford]

May 15, 2012 7:14:27 GMT -6 Hooligan said:

Yeah, that's definitely not an official RUMP statement. The campaign has only just begun and we RUMPers know every party has many and varied and great ideas to propose. We look forward to an enjoyable and spirited campaign!

(( Hool ))

How do we make a formal statement than? Seriously, I don't remember voting on that platform. and Ive been checking my email.

[Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN]

Certainly, Choose Your Own Province is as I see it quite far from the Derivativist position, which is why I found it not unbelievable that the APT leader might join the RUMP. I agree that Fiôvâ is an exception to that principle - I must stress, a totally necessary exception without which the greater good of Reunision would not have happened. In the Republic we always sighed with frustration at those who put principle above the greater good of the Talossan nation.

But it makes me scratch my head even harder that the conservative, Derivatist RUMP should be bringing this up. In the secret ballot debate, we were deluged with "it ain't broke, stop trying to fix it" arguments. Since it seems to be the fashion to call people hypocrites in this thread, then... Seriously, in what way is Provincial Assignment as it stands broken?!?

[Vitxalmour Conductour]

May 15, 2012 12:22:54 GMT -6 D. N. Vercáriâ said:

Anyway, "derivatist" question: How are other countries dealing with citizens who are living abroad? A quick web search brought back the result that in Germany, German citizens who are living abroad may be registered at the place of their most recent residence in Germany, when it comes to acting their civil rights in federal elections. Germans without a registered place of residence may chose a place "where they are usually living", when it comes to signing in for state elections, at least a web page of Saxony seemed to say so.

So how is it elsewhere? Is there a derivatable role model for Talossa, a country where the majority of the people is living abroad?

Growing up in a US military family, my mother and father retained Ohio residence status the entire time, whether we were living in Germany or Colorado. The official nomenclature was "Permanent Address" as opposed to "Current Address".

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

May 15, 2012 15:41:05 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

But it makes me scratch my head even harder that the conservative, Derivatist RUMP should be bringing this up. In the secret ballot debate, we were deluged with "it ain't broke, stop trying to fix it" arguments.

I believe this is a case of, "it's broke, let's fix it," as Hool's list of problems best articulates. Personally, I think that Mick's idea is great, since I don't much cotton to the idea of abandoning geographic assignment altogether. The principle is sound, we just need to make it work.

[Hooligan]

May 15, 2012 15:41:05 GMT -6 Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN said:

Certainly, Choose Your Own Province is as I see it quite far from the Derivativist position, which is why I found it not unbelievable that the APT leader might join the RUMP. I agree that Fiôvâ is an exception to that principle - I must stress, a totally necessary exception without which the greater good of Reunision would not have happened. In the Republic we always sighed with frustration at those who put principle above the greater good of the Talossan nation.

But it makes me scratch my head even harder that the conservative, Derivatist RUMP should be bringing this up. In the secret ballot debate, we were deluged with "it ain't broke, stop trying to fix it" arguments. Since it seems to be the fashion to call people hypocrites in this thread, then... Seriously, in what way is Provincial Assignment as it stands broken?!?

I really think I answered this question in detail in one of my previous posts. Provincial Assignment, as it stands, is (in my opinion) broken because it creates (even without the Fiovan exception) inequities in the abilities of Talossan citizens to do the same things for their country (and province) that others of their fellow-citizens can do.

Plain and simple. The fact that I can talk to the person across the street about how great Talossa and Florencia is, knowing if he becomes a citizen, then working on Florencian affairs together is something he and I can do is a huge advantage for me (and you, Miestrâ) over, say, my sister Aladna, or GV, who, when they talk to the person across the street, will be saying, "but yeah, we won't be in the same province, no way".

If the geographical catchment areas are truly to be geographical catchment areas, then people who live across the street from each other (as long as they don't, say, live on either side of North Street in the GTA itself, of course!) should be in the same province. This is impossible under the current law for a great many Talossans, including the vast majority of the reviensadeirs.

I honestly thought that this proposal would be better received by the budding Fiovans, as it is truly one that, I believe, helps your province, perhaps more than any other.

(( Hool ))

[Hooligan]

May 15, 2012 14:53:53 GMT -6 Benedict Stamford said:

How do we make a formal statement than?

As the Party Leader, I will be happy to adopt as an official statement any statement that makes sense. Saying that no other parties have ideas is not something that made much sense to me, as it certainly is far from true. We know for a fact that many of the opposition parties have put forth many ideas. Just off-hand, I can name the secret-ballot thing, the Senatorial recall thing, and the allow-micronationalists-in thing. And then there's the whole "someday, let's kick the King off his throne" thing.

If your statement was meant as campaign sloganry/hyperbole, okay, but it didn't seem like it, and it caused only offence from our respected friends across the aisles. So I felt the need to say that the Party Leadership did not endorse the "we're the only ones with any ideas" declaration.

Seriously, I don't remember voting on that platform. and Ive been checking my email.

In keeping with tradition, the RUMP platform was put together by the Mysterious Executive Coven of the RUMP (after the traditional call for volunteers to help was made, which was, as is traditional, met by the sound of cricket-chirps in response). Usually it is sent to the party for comment and modification and a week or more's worth of final touch-ups. This year, for reasons explained on the mailing list, it was not, but since it rocks so hard anyway, no biggie.

Not sure why you might not be getting the party mailing list emails, though. Hmm.....

(( Hool ))

[Eðo Grischun]

... quickly addressing this first, but another reply to follow mo' ticky tick ...

May 15, 2012 18:44:01 GMT -6 Hooligan said:

If your [Ben Stamford's] statement was meant as campaign sloganry/hyperbole, okay, but it didn't seem like it, and it caused only offence from our respected friends across the aisles.

No offence taken here.

However, If I were a RUMP voter or member I would find this thread disturbing. What I'm seeing is:

• A RUMP manifesto that does not actually smell completely like a RUMP manifesto
  
• This manifesto was posted per the OP time stamps and then magically the PDF was edited...(am I the only one that managed to read it twice but with a time lapse large enough to catch the changes?)
  
• The first manifesto and the then changed manifesto were both adopted by the RUMPs campaign manager without, it seems, approval from the party ranks and the party leader. (WOW)
  

My first round of questions to the RUMP's leadership:

• Why was the manifesto changed ~30 minutes after it's initial release? Is this document the brainchild of your campaign manager and campaign manager alone? How much input did he have from the party leadership on these points (all of them)?
  
• Did the party discuss, debate and/or vote on this manifesto? Is the RUMP actually standing as one solid party on all of these manifesto points?
  

This all may seem whiny or trivial but I am trying to ascertain if the RUMP is the same solid-bloc party it was, say, a year ago compared to right here and now.


now, onto my other post...

[Hooligan]

May 15, 2012 18:59:53 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

If I were a RUMP voter or member I would find this thread disturbing. What I'm seeing is:

• A RUMP manifesto that does not actually smell completely like a RUMP manifesto

Smells like one to me. Which part didn't smell like a blast out of the RUMP? It seems as RUMPy as anything we've ever emitted.

• This manifesto was posted per the OP time stamps and then magically the PDF was edited...(am I the only one that managed to read it twice but with a time lapse large enough to catch the changes?)

Yep. I caught a typo that had been missed and corrected it. You know how I am; I am constantly perfecting my posts here. I post, I read, I modify, I read, I modify, I read, I modify, I read.

When Vitx (at my request) posted the announcement of the platform, I read his post, I clicked the link to make sure it worked right (i.e., to be sure it would properly get people to the platform documents I had uploaded), I read the platform, I noticed the typo, I fixed it, I started reading again. It's what I do. I have in fact fixed others since then. In the most recent two updates, I added missing periods. Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, but hey.

The RUMP most certainly did not change the substance of its platform in any way, though if we feel like we want to, we can. It's our platform and we're free to do with it what we will. It's not even election season yet. But I'm very happy with just fixing typoes, which I definitely reserve the right to do.

Copy the PDF to your own machine if you're afraid I'm changing it. But the party has absolutely no reason to do anything to it other than fix typoes.

• The first manifesto and the then changed manifesto were both adopted by the RUMPs campaign manager without, it seems, approval from the party ranks and the party leader. (WOW)
  

The Party Leader and many members of the RUMP worked on the platform. Tell me any other party that does it different.

My first round of questions to the RUMP's leadership:

• Why was the manifesto changed ~30 minutes after it's initial release?

Answered above. I've also changed it since. This morning (my time) was the most recent change. Fair warning: it may change later too if I see a comma that should be a semicolon. I also reserve the right to continue not to bother telling everyone that I've made such a change.

Is this document the brainchild of your campaign manager and campaign manager alone?

No. Also answered above.

How much input did he have from the party leadership on these points (all of them)?

Correct. The Party Leader was intimately involved in the creation of the platform. Some elections, the Coven prepares the platform without me; this time around, I feel that this election is crucial so I wanted to be involved at an earlier stage than I sometimes have been.

• Did the party discuss, debate and/or vote on this manifesto?

No. Though I don't know why it is anyone else's business how the RUMP runs, in this particular election, while many people were involved, timing of the Party Leader's decision to announce the platform made it so that other of the party members were not. However, every member of the party had the opportunity to be involved in the drafting of the platform. A call for those interested to step forward was sent out at least a month ago.

Not every party member was involved in the platform approval process. Again, I say, so what? Elected or appointed delegates to any and every party convention outside Talossa adopt the platform, and rank-and-file members trust those delegates. The RUMP, with its "Mysterious Executive Coven", which is neither so Mysterious nor so Executive as its name claims, is how the RUMP mimicks this model.

• Is the RUMP actually standing as one solid party on all of these manifesto points?

I have stated earlier in this thread that while every member of the RUMP I have spoken to is solidly behind the pledge to "propose and sponsor" a change to provincial catchment, some may choose not to support it. We're a free party in a country of free people, and I note that in every other country of the world, there are persons in a legislature representing party X who choose not to vote with their fellows on specific issues.

This all may seem whiny or trivial but I am trying to ascertain if the RUMP is the same solid-bloc party it was, say, a year ago compared to right here and now.

Not trivial, I guess. Just kinda funny. I can say with complete confidence that the RUMP is as strong as ever, and that our platform says the things we believe.

now, onto my other post...

Now, onto editing and re-editing this one!

(( Hool ))

[Vitxalmour Conductour]

Are you suggesting there may be a crack in the RUMP?

But seriously, my part was mostly ceremonial.

[Eðo Grischun]

Hool: Plain and simple. The fact that I can talk to the person across the street about how great Talossa and Florencia is, knowing if he becomes a citizen, then working on Florencian affairs together is something he and I can do is a huge advantage for me (and you, Miestrâ) over, say, my sister, or GV, who, when they talk to the person across the street, will be saying, "but yeah, we won't be in the same province, no way".

I don't just live across the street from another Talossan, I live in the same house as one! I am from/assigned to Vuode province while Perla is from/assigned to Ataturk...and guess what, it makes no difference what-so-ever. When I asked Perla to join we never thought anything of provincial assignment and it made not an ounce of difference to how our Talossan lives would have panned out. Even if we were both Vuodean or both Ataturks, Perla would still have slid into inactivity only showing up once in a while and at general elections and I would still have done all the things I have done for and in the Kingdom so far. Not an ounce of difference.

Well, if I wasn't Vuodean I would not be involved in Vuodean constitution writing but I would have gave the same effort to whatever province I was in.

If these changes take effect you can bet your buttons that I will not be moving from Vuode ever and it's a good bet that Perla wont be requesting a reassignment to come 'live with me' in Vuode whenever we end up married.

I understand the point behind having folks from Italy (for example) all in one province... but do you think that Italians in Benito and Italians in Vuode won't hang out in their 'real-life' pizzeria together?

and nothing stops a Maricopian from helping out a Florencian in provincial matters. I would go over to Edinburgh and help out a friend with a local project if he needed the help despite the fact that I am not from Edinburgh. So if your (Hool's) neighbour from across the street won't join Talossa because he wont be assigned to the same province as his mates and would only work/help out IN the province he came from, then that neighbour is better off remaining extra-Talossan, IMO.

There is too much segregation between our provinces as it is. We actually have made it worse so far, which I'll touch on in a second. Friendly competition is always welcomed the world over. A sports team from Nevada vs a sports team from Arkansas. A quiz team from Madrid vs a quiz team from Barcelona. However, in Talossan terms very little provincial work occurs in an intr-provincial fashion. I don't see many M-Mers wanting to roll up their shirts and help out in Vuode. In fact, Vuode receives very little visitors from outside of it's borders.

So, we made the segregation worse? When? Reunison and Fiova. While I admire and respect every single member of the Reviensadeir community, even more-so now that your here, I have been offended by the apparent attitude of "Ok, we will come join you but we ain't joining any of your provinces" and "Ok, we will come join you but we want to be segregated from you and have our own province".

and the DOOM of TALOSSA is a bit heavy. I think, nay, I'm sure that Talossa will survive whatever direction this particular issue takes.

[Hooligan]

May 15, 2012 19:26:40 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

If these changes take effect you can bet your buttons that I will not be moving from Vuode ever and it's a good bet that Perla wont be requesting a reassignment to come 'live with me' in Vuode whenever we end up married.

There is absolutely nothing in the proposal that would concern this. The proposal would affect only new citizens entering the nation. A change of provincial assignment is currently only possible for Talossans if they physically move into the nation itself or, as you pointed out, enter into a marriage with another Talossan assigned to a different province. No one is forced to do so in this latter case, though, and absolutely certainly, stay assigned to Vuode if you wish, and Perla is free to stay assigned to Atatürk.

Your point about you and Perla not caring that you're assigned to different provinces is well-taken. But that does not mean it is universal; others may feel otherwise. It also, I argue, may be more a product of the weakness of our provincial system that you and she don't see it as a big deal. But our provincial system is getting stronger — just look at the Fiovans go; why, it's almost like a whole little NATION over there it's so active! — so it will become a bigger deal for others than it is for you. It is my belief that legislating a change to what we have now will do a lot to strengthen our provincial system.

(( Hool ))

[Eðo Grischun]

May 15, 2012 19:20:03 GMT -6 Hooligan said:

Which part didn't smell like a blast out of the RUMP? It seems as RUMPy as anything we've ever emitted.

Another post for that one coming later.

Yep. I caught a typo that had been missed and corrected it. You know how I am; I am constantly perfecting my posts here. I post, I read, I modify, I read, I modify, I read, I modify, I read.

When Vitx (at my request) posted the announcement of the platform, I read his post, I clicked the link to make sure it worked right (i.e., to be sure it would properly get people to the platform documents I had uploaded), I read the platform, I noticed the typo, I fixed it, I started reading again. It's what I do. I have in fact fixed others since then. In the most recent two updates, I added missing periods. Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, but hey.

NO NO NO!

I managed to see a whole new paragraph! A whole new section with a whole new header! It was more than the odd typo.

I don't give a rootin-toot about you making changes to your own document. I've done it. BUT I want to know, considering that I don't remember at least one of the sections, headers and paragraphs upon my second reading how the RUMP worked together on this and how they adopted it as policy ... together.

The RUMP most certainly did not change the substance of its platform in any way

I disagree, see above.

though if we feel like we want to, we can. It's our platform and we're free to do with it what we will. It's not even election season yet.

Of course. I am not arguing otherwise. My line of questioning was, again, to work out if the party acted together on this and how much of the party worked on it.

The Party Leader and many members of the RUMP worked on the platform. Tell me any other party that does it different.

I think you may have misunderstood my stance. I can't tell you a party that does it differently. I am glad that you can set my mind at ease that your party worked together on this. I thought you had not.

... I don't know why it is anyone else's business how the RUMP runs, in this particular election, ...

um, perhaps because your asking for our votes?


I think it is well within an electorates rights to know how a party runs for it gives indication of how it may govern if elected. I wanted to know how many of your rank-and-file were involved in the process of coming up with your plan for the next eight months. I think it is a fair thing to ask considering the rank-and-file are most likely going to be the MCs and ministers of a government if that party is elected.

Evidence in this thread, to me, pointed to the suggestion that discussions were not taken place openly in 'the coven' as you say because S:r Stamford did not get the mail, and a vote or whatever did not seem to have taken place. Now, I know how your mailing list works having been a member of your party, so I was led to the conclusion that perhaps some of your party was excluded from the conversation.

[Eðo Grischun]

May 15, 2012 19:56:24 GMT -6 Hooligan said:

May 15, 2012 19:26:40 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

If these changes take effect you can bet your buttons that I will not be moving from Vuode ever and it's a good bet that Perla wont be requesting a reassignment to come 'live with me' in Vuode whenever we end up married.

There is absolutely nothing in the proposal that would concern this. The proposal would affect only new citizens entering the nation. A change of provincial assignment is currently only possible for Talossans if they physically move into the nation itself or, as you pointed out, enter into a marriage with another Talossan assigned to a different province. No one is forced to do so in this latter case, though, and absolutely certainly, stay assigned to Vuode if you wish, and Perla is free to stay assigned to Atatürk.

Your point about you and Perla not caring that you're assigned to different provinces is well-taken. But that does not mean it is universal; others may feel otherwise. It also, I argue, may be more a product of the weakness of our provincial system that you and she don't see it as a big deal. But our provincial system is getting stronger — just look at the Fiovans go; why, it's almost like a whole little NATION over there it's so active! — so it will become a bigger deal for others than it is for you. It is my belief that legislating a change to what we have now will do a lot to strengthen our provincial system.

(( Hool ))

I get that it will be for new people. I was trying to give you my perspective as a modern CyberCit and my views when I first became Talossan.

Of course, my view will be minority and not universal. My views normally are, that is one reason I'm not wanting to contest this election.

It also, I argue, may be more a product of the weakness of our provincial system that you and she don't see it as a big deal

YES! IT IS!

but your manifesto does not give me a clue as to how you propose to fix that. Geographical assignment? I don't think it will.

(edit: thinking hard about it. I'm not sure if a strong provincial system would make too big a difference for me.... the way I see things: Talossan > Vuodean)

[Hooligan]

May 15, 2012 20:09:34 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

I get that it will be for new people. I was trying to give you my perspective as a modern CyberCit and my views when I first became Talossan.

Yep. Cool.

Of course, my view will be minority and not universal. My views normally are, that is one reason I'm not wanting to contest this election.

This statement cracked me up. Eðo Grischun: The Minority of One. ...Hey wait, I am another Minority of One! :-)

but your manifesto does not give me a clue as to how you propose to fix that. Geographical assignment? I don't think it will.

I disagree. If people who see each other often (let's say, XPB and a group of his friends) are citizens of the same province (let's say, Cézembre), then that province, here in these days when Fiova is setting us all our example and challenges us all to make our provinces All They Can Be, is better off.

If, instead, XPB and his friends get together and XPB is surrounded by Florencians (just like he is in each and every TalossaWest) and he says, "hey, you guys wanna help work on the Cézembre Constitution?" and they say, "sure, maybe for 10 minutes, and then you help us for 10 minutes on Florencia, and then we'll help this Atatürkey among us with the goings-on in Abbavilla, well, you get my point. As the provinces get stronger and people feel more identity with their provinces than they currently might, the "we'll all split our time helping each other" becomes a bit utopian, or at least waters down the end-results that could be achieved by a geographically-common group of provincial-fellow (which, I hurry to add, is exactly what the whole catchment areas system was supposed to give us, and thus isn't at all a new idea, but one going back to the olden days).

(( Hool ))

[Iustì Carlüs Canun]

*removing SoS hat* It's my understanding that the RUMP's Mysterious Executive Coven does not include the entire party.