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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on May 15, 2012 2:26:40 GMT -6
I am surprised by the radical nature of the proposed immigration reform! It sounds very interesting to discard the geographical catchment areas and allow immigrants to choose their province. Not in a bad way. Oh! That's something that the MRP (the Republican one) has been campaigning for for a long while. It always evoked almost hysterical reactions, because, according to the defenders of the fixed geographical assignment, it might have been the sacrifice of a valuable tradition. If only the RUMP wasn't so damn traditional when it comes to the preservation of monarchy, I'd feel challenged to give them my vote. |
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on May 15, 2012 2:33:41 GMT -6
Wait, what's this? Deet was tapped for RUMP campaign manager? He doesn't dislike Defencism that much.  But if the RUMP are planning on trashing geographical provincial assignment, maybe it does may sense, as he pushed that barrow in the Republic since day one. I'm still opposed to it, since it makes provinces nothing more than "clubs", and would serve to undermine voluntary associations of Talossans such as political parties. I guess most people out there can safely tell socio-cultural preferences (expressed by the choice of a provice) from political preferences (expressed by a party affiliation, or the lack thereof), Miestrâ.  Anyway, I would recommend a mix of the two (or maybe more?) provincial assignment methods, as immigrants may not feel fit to chose a province at first sight. Like, for example, the option of changing one's assignment after a while, or every other year. |
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Post by Vitxalmour Conductour on May 15, 2012 4:00:41 GMT -6
It seems that after M:sr Vercáriâ's disappointing declination, I have been assigned as the RUMP's campaign manager. Ah, and there was nothing that you could do against it? I suppose I could have said, "No." But that never seems to occur to me until much later. It is an issue I need to work on. |
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on May 15, 2012 5:07:21 GMT -6
I am surprised by the radical nature of the proposed immigration reform! It sounds very interesting to discard the geographical catchment areas and allow immigrants to choose their province. Not in a bad way. Oh! That's something that the MRP (the Republican one) has been campaigning for for a long while. It always evoked almost hysterical reactions, because, according to the defenders of the fixed geographical assignment, it might have been the sacrifice of a valuable tradition. In the real world, it was because provinces without a population connected by geography are just web-based clubs. But you choose your version, I'm sure it makes more sense to you. Peculiar ideas require a peculiar view of reality and a peculiar memory too, I suppose. In any case, if we're going to disconnect Talossa more from geography and being a nation, non-geographical assignment is an important small first step. Logically it needs to be followed up by provinces not tied to geography, too, before we have completed the transition from a nation to an Internet club. |
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on May 15, 2012 6:29:35 GMT -6
Oh! That's something that the MRP (the Republican one) has been campaigning for for a long while. It always evoked almost hysterical reactions, because, according to the defenders of the fixed geographical assignment, it might have been the sacrifice of a valuable tradition. In the real world, it was because provinces without a population connected by geography are just web-based clubs. But you choose your version, I'm sure it makes more sense to you. Peculiar ideas require a peculiar view of reality and a peculiar memory too, I suppose. . Our provinces are connected to geography - in Talossa. People who are actually living there know exactly in which province their place of residence is located. But what we are talking about in this thread is the assignment of Talossans who are living abroad. Their assignment to provinces isn't following a natural law; it's following a Talossan law that can be negotiated and re-negotiated by Talossans. Even if you are going to pout, Ián. |
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on May 15, 2012 6:33:14 GMT -6
In the real world, it was because provinces without a population connected by geography are just web-based clubs. But you choose your version, I'm sure it makes more sense to you. Peculiar ideas require a peculiar view of reality and a peculiar memory too, I suppose. . Our provinces are connected to geography - in Talossa. People who are actually living there know exactly in which province their place of residence is located. But what we are talking about in this thread is the assignment of Talossans who are living abroad. Their assignment to provinces isn't following a natural law; it's following a Talossan law that can be negotiated and re-negotiated by Talossans. Yes, we are discussing assignment. What in my reply made you think I wasn't? And if assignment disconnects from geographical proximity and instead selects for how well people get on together, we are disconnecting ourselves from the idea that Talossa is based on geography and take one small step towards Talossa being an Internet club. |
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Post by D. N. Vercáriâ on May 15, 2012 6:37:47 GMT -6
Chosing one's provincial assignment would be like saying, if I'd ever move to Talossa, I'd try to become a resident of my chosen province. How would this make said province a "club"? Explain.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on May 15, 2012 6:54:01 GMT -6
The RUMP is rather surprised by the debate on this, which it expected (sure) but not until after making the proposal that it pledges to make in its platform. To be sure, as I pointed out, this will be a rich debate with arguments to be made on both sides. The nation will find that even the RUMP may not speak with a single voice on this issue (but we as a party believe it deserves proposing, sponsoring, and discussing, to see where the nation sits). That said, since debates have indeed sort of begun a bit on the subject, allow me to point out one reason why the current catchment system is, some (like me) would argue, unfair in a way that only legislative reform can correct: - The King is Florencian.
- The King recruited me personally. I became Florencian, like the person who told me about Talossa.
- The King recruited Prince Patrick, Princess Nellie, and Prince Peter. They all became Florencians, like the person who told them about Talossa (although Prince Peter would have slipped to Atatürk, his blood relation to other Florencians allowed him to choose Florencia despite it being closed to immigration).
- I recruited Sam Tecladeir. He became Florencian like the guy who recruited him.
- I recruited (well, not really; they kinda just found out about my Talossanity and glommed on to be like me, God bless 'em) my sister Aspra, my brother-in-law Róibeard, two nieces and one nephew. They all became Florencians, like the person who recruited them.
- The King recruited Brad Holmes, and another of my sisters, Çelís, glommed on too. Both of them, despite living in the Florencian catchment area, slipped to Atatürk (with their three dandelions) since Florencia was closed (Çelís, being blood-related to me, had a choice, but chose Atatürk over Florencia; I never trusted her anyway).
- Yet another of my sisters, Aladna la Mha Coca, glommed on too, and just like her older sister Çelís, she chose to allow herself to slip out of Florencia (which was closed), and on past Atatürk, which was also closed, and into Vuode. My niece Amaval is therefore also a Vuodean. Aladna lives maybe 20 city blocks from her sister Aspra, the Florencian.
- I recruited Trotxâ Betiñéir. Florencia was closed, and so was Atatürk, so he ended up (despite living only 15 miles from me and a mere five from the King, who started all this recruiting) a Vuodean. No, he doesn't mind, but stay tuned....
- I recruited X. Pol Briga. So many provinces were closed that he (despite living within ten miles of Trotxâ) ended up in Cézembre. Again, he doesn't mind, but again, stay tuned....
Okay, now. Take this exact same story, and instead of starting it with John (or me), start it with Brad, or Çelís, or Trotxâ, or XPB. You can't. Start it with Deet, or Grubi, or Grubi's son, or GV, or Ián, or Carlüs, or Eiric. You can't. Start it with one of our brand-newest citizens, Xhenta Britxind, who slipped from Florencia to Atatürk despite living in Minnesota with no fewer than three other active Talossans nearby (one of whom had been slipped to Vuode!). You can't. But start it with Prince Peter, or with Miestrâ, no problem! Is it fair that some people can easily personally recruit citizens to join them in their home province and others cannot? I argue that it is not. I consider this to be an inequity in our citizenships. Take poor little Vuode. Until the recent immigration of a New Yorker just the other day (who, like all brand-new immigrants, we all hope will be active, but we shall see), all but one (V, who will himself soon be physically moving outside of the Vuode catchment area!) of the active Vuodeans were Vuodean because he or she had slipped from their home province to Vuode (their home province and enough other provinces being closed to immigration at the time). Vuode really has had no hope of growing, because all active Vuodeans, if they personally recruited, would be recruiting into other provinces. The only hope Vuode has is that by the luck of chance, New Yorkers would start immigrating. That's not fair to Vuode, and that's why it has remained so puny in population. Do we really want people telling their friends, "I'd love to have you become Talossan, but right now the province we would be assigned to is open, and it wasn't when I became a citizen, so maybe we should hope it closes and then if your timing is exactly right, you can be Benitian like me"? For XPB to actually personally recruit someone into his home province of Cézembre, every single other province (yes, all six — soon to be seven — of them) would have to all be closed to immigration. Every last one of the other provinces would have to be twice as large in population as Cézembre for anyone XPB personally knows to be able to join him to help work on Cézembrean affairs. That is not fair to Cézembre. The current catchment area system has actually caused our province's population to disperse outside of the planned catchment areas so much that it has created an inequality of opportunity for Talossans. If (as is the case) the list of active citizens is chock full (and about to get a lot fuller) of people who live outside of the catchment area of the province to which they are assigned, this is actually discouraging active citizens from getting even more active. And that's bad not only for those particular citizens and their provinces, but for the nation as a whole. At least, that's something I plan to argue when this proposal is in the Hopper. :-) In the meantime, VOTE RUMP! (( Hool )) |
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Sir Tamorán dal Navâ
Shackamaxon man/Can you tell me where you stand?
Posts: 772
Talossan Since: 2-21-1998
Motto: Cedo nulli.
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Post by Sir Tamorán dal Navâ on May 15, 2012 7:11:58 GMT -6
Vote RUMP! It's not like anyone else has any ideas. I can guarantee you're going to regret that line. |
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on May 15, 2012 7:14:27 GMT -6
Yeah, that's definitely not an official RUMP statement. The campaign has only just begun and we RUMPers know every party has many and varied and great ideas to propose. We look forward to an enjoyable and spirited campaign!
(( Hool ))
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Will Sever
Talossan since 02-12-2012
Citizen of Talossa
Posts: 16
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Post by Will Sever on May 15, 2012 8:08:38 GMT -6
RUMP For the win
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Post by Vitxalmour Conductour on May 15, 2012 8:30:10 GMT -6
Oh! That's something that the MRP (the Republican one) has been campaigning for for a long while. It always evoked almost hysterical reactions, because, according to the defenders of the fixed geographical assignment, it might have been the sacrifice of a valuable tradition. In the real world, it was because provinces without a population connected by geography are just web-based clubs. But you choose your version, I'm sure it makes more sense to you. Peculiar ideas require a peculiar view of reality and a peculiar memory too, I suppose. In any case, if we're going to disconnect Talossa more from geography and being a nation, non-geographical assignment is an important small first step. Logically it needs to be followed up by provinces not tied to geography, too, before we have completed the transition from a nation to an Internet club. I would find these words more meaningful if they were consistent with your actions. The Fiôvân Internet Club, as your words would define it, lacks any meaningful geographic distinction at this point. I don't consider that a bad thing, and I understand the reasons behind its existence and composition. I fully support La Provinçù Liveradâ da Fiôvâ. I know you are special, but until such time as your own provincial assignment reflects your geography, please try to tone down the smugness when you attack such ideas. |
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on May 15, 2012 9:03:11 GMT -6
In the real world, it was because provinces without a population connected by geography are just web-based clubs. But you choose your version, I'm sure it makes more sense to you. Peculiar ideas require a peculiar view of reality and a peculiar memory too, I suppose. In any case, if we're going to disconnect Talossa more from geography and being a nation, non-geographical assignment is an important small first step. Logically it needs to be followed up by provinces not tied to geography, too, before we have completed the transition from a nation to an Internet club. I would find these words more meaningful if they were consistent with your actions. The Fiôvân Internet Club, as your words would define it, lacks any meaningful geographic distinction at this point. I don't consider that a bad thing, and I understand the reasons behind its existence and composition. I, on the other hand, consider Fiôvâ a flawed province which I hope will be integrated into the geographical assignment system as soon as possible. It is indeed an Internet club of likeminded, I agree, and that's a bad thing. |
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on May 15, 2012 9:05:25 GMT -6
Is it fair that some people can easily personally recruit citizens to join them in their home province and others cannot? I argue that it is not. I consider this to be an inequity in our citizenships. So stop this "closed" business already. It's that innovation that causes the problem. That was only invented to prevent the insurgent hotbed Cézembre (as it was perceived by the king) from growing too strong. |
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on May 15, 2012 9:14:15 GMT -6
I, on the other hand, consider Fiôvâ a flawed province which I hope will be integrated into the geographical assignment system as soon as possible. And "The Take Me To The River Omnibus", about to be passed by the Ziu, does exactly that, of course. This won't change the fact, though, that you and so many other Fiovans (not to mention so many of your other fellow citizens) are located outside of the catchment area of your own province. You have far better chance of actually spending time with a Cézembrean (and GV with a Maricopan, and Grubi with a Maritiimi-Maxhestican) than you do to spend time with a Fiovan, which essentially negates the benefit of the (worldwide) geographical correlation to the provinces. I may agree with you here, and so your point that limiting those who can (usually) immigrate to Fiova to only those in particular parts of the world (which theoretically means that their politics will vary) may in some sense fix this. However, I would argue that allowing anyone, anywhere in the world, the ability to choose Fiova, will be just as efficient, if not more efficient, in adding diverse opinions to the mix in that province. (I can, though, see how the reverse could be argued, which is why this is a good debate.) (( Hool )) |
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"Ceterum censeo republicam proclamandum esse."
