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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2008 20:34:23 GMT -6
At this point, what I've come up with, and which I will consider a tentative rough draft (pending input from my new, and sole, collaborator), is centered around the notion that a basic constitution need only establish a structure for forming laws, and needn't actually do much more than that. After the mechanism of lawmaking is established, further details can be created as needed. As such, what I have is a very short document detailing how laws are to be established. And that's it. I find it short, simple, sweet, and nearly infinitely versatile.
And I presume, given no existing structure, that ratification of a Constitution will require a simple majority of citizens?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2008 20:54:01 GMT -6
Okay, so I have more questions, regarding the info here: www.kingdomoftalossa.net/index.cgi?lingo=&page=ProvincialWhy does Ataturk have 11 seats in its "House of Commons?" It says "The number of seats in each provincial assembly varies and can be set by provincial law." When was 11 decided upon, and how was that number reached? What should be the criteria for deciding the number? What is the relevence of the number, and when/how does it come into play? What if it were 5,908 instead of 11? What does is mean that RUMP has 10 seats and LRT has 1? How does that actually come into play? It says "Seats in the assembly are assigned by leaders of the political parties in proportion to the votes cast for that party." What votes cast, when? In the General election? So do the national Senators assign these seats? We have a "House of Commons" and a "Premier." Why? Did we used to have a Constitution that decided these things? Are we stuck on those names? Should we considers others? Answers when feasible, s'il vous plait...
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Oct 7, 2008 21:18:20 GMT -6
Why does Ataturk have 11 seats in its "House of Commons?" It says "The number of seats in each provincial assembly varies and can be set by provincial law." When was 11 decided upon, and how was that number reached? What should be the criteria for deciding the number? What is the relevence of the number, and when/how does it come into play? What if it were 5,908 instead of 11? What does is mean that RUMP has 10 seats and LRT has 1? How does that actually come into play? It says "Seats in the assembly are assigned by leaders of the political parties in proportion to the votes cast for that party." What votes cast, when? In the General election? So do the national Senators assign these seats? I can answer this much. Prior to a couple of recent OrgLaw amendments, seats in the Cosa were apportioned by province, and parties won seats according to their share of the vote in each province rather than nationally. Also, each province had a legislature with a number of seats equal to its number of Cosa seats, with elections held concurrently with national general elections. So the page shows that Atatürk had 11 out of 200 Cosa seats (and therefore 11 provincial legislature seats) at the time that page was created, and that based on the most recent election results 10 of those seats were assigned by the RUMP party leader and 1 was assigned by the LRT party leader.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Oct 8, 2008 2:28:23 GMT -6
I hope that I can offer some small help to my compatriots here, on behalf of M-M. What does is mean that RUMP has 10 seats and LRT has 1? How does that actually come into play? It says "Seats in the assembly are assigned by leaders of the political parties in proportion to the votes cast for that party." What votes cast, when? In the General election? So do the national Senators assign these seats? Provincial voting only usually is combined with the general election, out of the interests of making things easier on the guy with one of the hardest jobs there is: the SoS, who counts the votes. If you so choose in Ataturk, you can schedule elections at any time or pattern. The meaning of the power of each seat has generally been considered to be a common sense proposition. Each provincial vote is a seat, assigned to the party for which the vote was cast. A simple majority of the seats is a numerical simple majority. It is as intuitive as possible, by tradition. Again, this is something you may wish to change. I don't believe any province has made such a change, but Ataturk may differ. "Party leaders" refers to the leaders of the national parties, as determined by their own private metrics. For example, Lord Hooligan assigns seats for the RUMP (or rather, concocts a complicated drinking session game to make the decision). We have a "House of Commons" and a "Premier." Why? Did we used to have a Constitution that decided these things? Are we stuck on those names? Should we considers others? They are traditional names, and appear to be reasonably old in Talossan terms. If you like them, keep them. There was some discontent with the title of our premier in M-M, but after research was done as to its age we decided to keep it for tradition's sake.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 9:55:16 GMT -6
I can answer this much. Prior to a couple of recent OrgLaw amendments, seats in the Cosa were apportioned by province, and parties won seats according to their share of the vote in each province rather than nationally. Also, each province had a legislature with a number of seats equal to its number of Cosa seats, with elections held concurrently with national general elections. So the page shows that Atatürk had 11 out of 200 Cosa seats (and therefore 11 provincial legislature seats) at the time that page was created, and that based on the most recent election results 10 of those seats were assigned by the RUMP party leader and 1 was assigned by the LRT party leader. Thank you so much for your help. I'm getting closer and closer to feeling comfortable with this project! So, if I'm understanding, there is no objective requirement for there to be 11 seats in the provincial legislature (even though I grant it is based on a logical precedent)? What if, instead of a representative form of provincial gov't, we had a direct democracy, where each voting citizen was considered a member of an assembly that could make laws? With only 16 citizens, representative gov't seems silly to me, and direct democracy seems quite reasonable. Obviously, a representative form could be enacted later, should the population grow to the point of needing it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 10:09:27 GMT -6
Also, S:reu Davis, many thanks once again for your invaluable assistance with this project.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 10:23:34 GMT -6
What the hell, I'm just going to post here what I have so far, and see what happens:
We, the citizens of the Talossan Province of Ataturk, in order to assure the vibrant and continued life of our Province, establish the following guidelines for the governance of Ataturk. In doing so, we acknowledge the supreme law of the Kingdom, the Organic Law, and assert that no law of Ataturk shall ever conflict with Organic Law or national statutes.
CITIZENS' RIGHTS
The Province of Ataturk will defend and uphold the rights of her citizens as guaranteed by Talossan law.
THE ASSEMBLY AND THE HAP*
Provincial lawmaking powers will be vested in The Assembly, which will be composed of every law-abiding citizen of Ataturk who has attained legal voting age as described by Talossan law.
The Assembly will elect a Head Assembly Person (HAP) by a majority vote, and the HAP will serve for a period of one year, unless removed by a two-thirds vote of The Assembly. The HAP will coordinate the business of The Assembly, and will assure that every member of the Assembly is afforded an equal opportunity to participation in Assembly business. Upon ratification of this Constitution, the currently-appointed Constuval of the Province will oversee the election of the first HAP, and subsequent HAP elections will be overseen by the sitting HAP.**
The Assembly wil meet on an "as-needed" basis when called to do so by The HAP. If The Assembly has not assembled for business for a period of 6 months, the HAP will call for a general meeting of The Assembly to allow for the introduction of any new business and to discuss the overall state of affairs in the province.
Any member of the Assembly may, at any time, present proposed legislation to The HAP who will then issue a "Summons to Vote" to The Assembly by posting a clearly-marked thread in Witt. It is acceptable for The HAP to hold a proposed item for up to 14 days before issuing a "Summons to Vote" should he/she feel that more discussion is required to bring the proposal into a suitable condition for a vote, or to allow for two or more proposals to be presented for vote at one time. Upon calling for a vote, The HAP will make a reasonable effort to assure that every member of The Assembly is encouraged to vote, and is given suitable opportunity to cast their vote. All votes will be public, and voting will be closed at the end of the 14th day following the call to vote. Votes may be cast by posting in the thread of a "Summons to Vote," and by any other methods deemed suitable by The Hap. A vote will be considered passed if a majority of all elibible voters vote in favor of it, or if 2/3 of all votes cast are in favor. Otherwise, the vote will be considered failed.
RATIFICATION
This Constitution is hereby ratified by the following citizens on this XXX day of XXX, XXXX. Blah, blah, blah...
* I'm not tied to these names by any means. ** I haven't actually ASKED Constable Holmes about this, so consider it a tentative idea to handle the initial HAP election.
Obviously, this is a bare-bones proposition. My thinking is as follows: We have a very small number of citizens (16); we're not very active; keep it simple, and get it done.
Also, I repeat my belief that at our size, a representative gov't is neither necessary nor ideal. It is literally feasible to make direct contact with each and every citizen. Hence, The Assembly is just the citizenry.
Thoughts?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Oct 8, 2008 20:04:41 GMT -6
So, if I'm understanding, there is no objective requirement for there to be 11 seats in the provincial legislature (even though I grant it is based on a logical precedent)? Right - with the old scheme, the number of seats would change with each election, as the balance of population between the provinces shifted. Provincial population divided by national population times 200 equals provincial legislature seats, roughly. But now each province can set things up pretty much however it wants. What if, instead of a representative form of provincial gov't, we had a direct democracy, where each voting citizen was considered a member of an assembly that could make laws? That does seem to be the answer everyone is arriving at.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 20:26:34 GMT -6
Alright, folks. I've got a comedy show to organize and holiday floats to build. I'm swamped, and I'm ready to see this project completed. Is there any discussion relevent to the draft posted herein? If not, I will start down the list of Ataturkeys, asking for UC votes on ratification. I will stop when everyone has UC'ed it.
Heh.
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Post by Çelís del Þeracour on Oct 16, 2008 20:30:26 GMT -6
Danihel, You've done a wonderful job with this and I'm sorry that I was no help. I would have to simply say:
UC
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2008 9:14:29 GMT -6
Okay, since there's been no discussion or disapproval of any portion of my posted draft, I am hereby posting this as an official request for constitutional ratification. Please post your "UC" votes here, and I will directly contact citizens asking them to post here.
* * * * * * * * * *
We, the citizens of the Talossan Province of Ataturk, in order to assure the vibrant and continued life of our Province, establish the following guidelines for the governance of Ataturk. In doing so, we acknowledge the supreme law of the Kingdom, the Organic Law, and assert that no law of Ataturk shall ever conflict with Organic Law or national statutes.
I. CITIZENS' RIGHTS
The Province of Ataturk will defend and uphold the rights of her citizens as guaranteed by Talossan law.
II. THE ASSEMBLY AND THE HAP
Provincial lawmaking powers will be vested in The Assembly, which will be composed of every law-abiding citizen of Ataturk who has attained legal voting age as described by Talossan law.
The Assembly will elect a Head Assembly Person (HAP) by a majority vote, and the HAP will serve for a period of one year, unless removed by a two-thirds vote of The Assembly. The HAP will coordinate the business of The Assembly, and will assure that every member of the Assembly is afforded an equal opportunity to participation in Assembly business. Upon ratification of this Constitution, the currently-appointed Constuval of the Province will oversee the election of the first HAP, and subsequent HAP elections will be overseen by the sitting HAP.
The Assembly wil meet on an "as-needed" basis when called to do so by The HAP. If The Assembly has not assembled for business for a period of 6 months, the HAP will call for a general meeting of The Assembly to allow for the introduction of any new business and to discuss the overall state of affairs in the province.
Any member of the Assembly may, at any time, present proposed legislation to The HAP who will then issue a "Summons to Vote" to The Assembly by posting a clearly-marked thread in Witt. It is acceptable for The HAP to hold a proposed item for up to 14 days before issuing a "Summons to Vote" should he/she feel that more discussion is required to bring the proposal into a suitable condition for a vote, or to allow for two or more proposals to be presented for vote at one time. Upon calling for a vote, The HAP will make a reasonable effort to assure that every member of The Assembly is encouraged to vote, and is given suitable opportunity to cast their vote. All votes will be public, and voting will be closed at the end of the 14th day following the call to vote. Votes may be cast by posting in the thread of a "Summons to Vote," and by any other methods deemed suitable by The Hap. A vote will be considered passed if a majority of all elibible voters vote in favor of it, or if 2/3 of all votes cast are in favor. Otherwise, the vote will be considered failed.
III. RATIFICATION
This Constitution is hereby ratified on this ____ day of _____, _____.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2008 10:55:54 GMT -6
I am unable to locate contact information for Mark Franklin. Anyone know how to reach him?
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Oct 21, 2008 11:16:23 GMT -6
I can't find him. So, I doubt if anyone else has any new information on his where abouts.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2008 15:03:40 GMT -6
How many UC votes does this need to ratify? By my research, there are 16 Ataturkeys of voting age. A simple majority would be 9, and a 2/3 would be 11. I'd prefer, of course, 100%, but to be realistic, I don't think everyone will even look at this thead, much less vote. I have 2 UCs already (mine and Celis').
In short, I want your vote. Please vote UC.
Also, I will personally hug and kiss every person that votes UC and pays to fly me to them for said hug.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2008 11:11:58 GMT -6
Message from our Cunstaval:
My fellow Atatürkeys,
As I am currently deployed and have next to no bandwidth to read Witt, I beg your patience on this vote. I humbly request your understanding and hereby do suspend the current vote on a Constitution until December, when I am scheduled to return. Please feel free to continue to discuss and comment via our Provincial page on Witt, and I will catch up when I get home.
Respectfully, Brad Holmes Cunstaval Senator
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