Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on May 15, 2014 10:05:14 GMT -6
Unfortunately, that table has a number of errors, and is not consistent with the 2010 Arestada. I should know--I was the one who floated the idea to Hooligan that maybe "preposition ending in a consonant" should really be "preposition ending in n or r" (which is not what the Arestada says). Upon further research, that was a mistake. So is the table correct or not? If not, can someone make a correct version of it? I don't really understand when mutations occur or not... I guess no one really does. That may be a reason why it's discouraged to write them all out.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 15, 2014 17:43:39 GMT -6
I guess no one really does. That may be a reason why it's discouraged to write them all out. Exactly. The 2010 Arestada doesn't spell out a lot of details needed to implement mutations effectively, but at the same time there was not an adequate understanding of historical practice to fill in the gaps. From further research, I think I understand how 1985-1992 mutations worked much better than I did a year ago. There are still unanswered questions, but I think we can know enough to conclude that current practice is ahistorical (and not as realistic as the old way). Moreover, there was never a sound linguistic basis for mutations in Talossan, and while I'm no advocate of aggressively "purifying" the language of unnatural elements, IMHO once an unnatural element has been long-abandoned it's unwise to bring it back (especially in an even more unnatural form).
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on May 18, 2014 8:20:02 GMT -6
New question!
Which is the correct spelling: Segnor or Segnhor? Is there a difference?
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Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial
Batetz las maes, perf. —— Freelance glheþineir (I only accept Worthless Internet Points™ as payment)
Posts: 448
Talossan Since: May 12, 2014
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Post by Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on May 18, 2014 8:45:47 GMT -6
Both are correct. There is no difference.
But - I'd say - be consistent.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 18, 2014 10:52:22 GMT -6
Which is the correct spelling: Segnor or Segnhor? Is there a difference? Marcel is right that there's no difference in meaning or pronunciation. The distinction lies in the history of Talossan orthography. Madison's orthography uses gñh to represent the palatal nasal consonant (can't do IPA on my cell phone, but it's 〈J〉 in X-SAMPA EDIT: IPA 〈ɲ〉). In the CÚG's 2007 orthographic simplification, gñh became gn, like in Italian. But some people continue to use Madison's orthography, and in a new Arestada in 2012 the CÚG approved the use of gnh as a compromise graph. I personally use gnh, but there are others who still use gn or gñh.
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on May 19, 2014 7:25:45 GMT -6
Which is the correct spelling: Segnor or Segnhor? Is there a difference? Marcel is right that there's no difference in meaning or pronunciation. The distinction lies in the history of Talossan orthography. Madison's orthography uses gñh to represent the palatal nasal consonant (can't do IPA on my cell phone, but it's 〈J〉 in X-SAMPA EDIT: IPA 〈ɲ〉). In the CÚG's 2007 orthographic simplification, gñh became gn, like in Italian. But some people continue to use Madison's orthography, and in a new Arestada in 2012 the CÚG approved the use of gnh as a compromise graph. I personally use gnh, but there are others who still use gn or gñh. Where can I find all of the CÚG's Arestadas?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 20, 2014 7:01:38 GMT -6
Where can I find all of the CÚG's Arestadas? We don't have copies of any Arestadas from before 2007, though some of the resolutions from them are summarised in Scúrzniâ Gramáticâ or Ben's other writings. The 2007, 2010, and 2011 Arestadas are available on the CÚG's site at cuglang.com. The 2012 Arestada has not yet been posted to the site.
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Post by Lupulüc "Lupüc" da Fhöglha on May 20, 2014 15:46:58 GMT -6
Where can I find all of the CÚG's Arestadas? We don't have copies of any Arestadas from before 2007, though some of the resolutions from them are summarised in Scúrzniâ Gramáticâ or Ben's other writings. The 2007, 2010, and 2011 Arestadas are available on the CÚG's site at cuglang.com. The 2012 Arestada has not yet been posted to the site. Do you know when it'll be posted? Also: when is the new Talossan Grammar book coming out?
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 20, 2014 19:05:35 GMT -6
Do you know when it'll be posted? Also: when is the new Talossan Grammar book coming out? Hard to say. I'm supposed to have been working with Iustì on the Arestada but lost a draft in a computer crash several months ago, and he's just coming back from several months of hiatus. Work's been crazy busy lately but hopefully I can get it taken care of next month. As for the actual resolutions adopted by the CÚG, I can pull those from the mailing list and post them here later this evening or in the morning. For the Arestada we just pretty them up, and include some historical context and explanatory language. As for the next version of Hooligan's grammar, he originally hoped to have it out in 2012, but then I dumped a bunch of comments on him, and then he got a "promotion" at work that has left him with little time for Talossa. Hard to tell when he'll have time to go through the outstanding issues. One of which is clarifying the mutation situation, which may require further consideration by the CÚG.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 21, 2014 3:16:45 GMT -6
These are the resolutions adopted by the CÚG in December 2012:
1. Proposals concerning orthography.
1.1 Return the gn digraph to gnh, and recognise the variant with tilde (gñh) as a traditional graph.
1.2 Recognise breve as a traditional but optional diacritic used on feminine nouns and adjectives ending in -a (-ă), with the circumflex (â) or no diacritic accepted as variants where the breve is unavailable or inconvenient.
1.3 Endorse the use of the default stressmarks (acute ́ and grave ̀) according to their normal usage on vowels where a difference in vowel quality is marked with an umlaut (ä, ö, and ü) to form their stressmarked versions (ä́, ö́, and ǘ; or ä̀, ö̀, and ǜ) whenever it is necessary to mark stress on these vowels, to replace the use of the circumflex to form stressmarked versions of these vowels as established by the Arestada of 12 December 2007.
2. Proposals concerning punctuation.
2.1 Adopt the interpunct (·) in preference to the apostrophe (') to mark separation of graphemes where they would otherwise be interpreted as forming a single consonant grapheme or a diphthong, and where no elision or contraction is present. Thus the sequence of graphemes s {s} followed by ch [k] would be written s·ch to distinguish the sequence from the grapheme sch [ʃ]. Where the interpunct is unavailable or inconvenient, writers may substitute an apostrophe or use no mark according to preference, except that the separation of s and ch must always be marked (s·ch or s'ch).
2.2 Adopt the interrobang (‽) to mark questions (including rhetorical questions) expressed in excitement, surprise, or disbelief. The inverted interrobang (⸘) is to be used in conjunction with the normal one in accordance with established practice for the question mark and exclamation point. As the interrobang is a combination of these two other punctuation marks, where the interrobang is unavailable or inconvenient, writers should use mixed marks (¡what?) when inverted marks are being used, or one of each at the end of the exclarrogation otherwise (what!?).
3. Proposals concerning affixes.
3.1 Adopt the productive suffix -atréu (feminine -atréa) to describe step-familial relationships, where no specific step- word already exists for a particular relationship.
3.2 Deprecate -attä and recognise sanc- (traditionally sânc-) as a productive affix with the same meaning. This proposal affects only the recognised list of productive affixes, not existing vocabulary.
3.3 Deprecate un- (traditionally ûn-) and recognise in- as a productive affix with the same meaning. When used before words beginning with l, m, p, or r, the prefix in- assimilates as i-, i-, im-, and i-, respectively. This proposal affects only the recognised list of productive affixes, not existing vocabulary.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 21, 2014 5:55:42 GMT -6
But I like "-attä"
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on May 21, 2014 6:22:38 GMT -6
But I like "-attä" Attäm boys!
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on May 21, 2014 6:59:13 GMT -6
But I like "-attä" It is the Finnish abessive case marker, and makes little sense in Talossan. If it were well-entrenched in the language it could make sense to keep it on the ground of tradition, but it turns out that it is actually used extremely rarely, appearing in only 7 words. By contrast, sanc is Romance, and appears in nearly as many or more Treisour entries as -attä (depending on whether you count compounds that have not yet merged into a single word), so we concluded that it has a better claim to recognition as the default suffix.
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Hooligan
Squirrel King of Arms; Cunstaval to Maricopa
Posts: 7,325
Talossan Since: 7-12-2005
Motto: PRIMA CAPIAM POCULA
Baron Since: 11-20-2005
Count Since: 9-8-2012
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Post by Hooligan on Jun 10, 2014 18:16:24 GMT -6
These are the resolutions adopted by the CÚG in December 2012: To put proposal 2.2 to use in English.... So this means Sir Cresti is finally writing up the 2012 Arestada‽ :-)
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Jun 10, 2014 18:26:59 GMT -6
So this means Sir Cresti is finally writing up the 2012 Arestada‽ :-) If I did, what excuse would you have left for not finishing the next edition of GC?
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