The Not-So-Early Bird Still More orLess Catches the Worm Act

[Munditenens Tresplet]

The Not-So-Early Bird Still More or Less Catches the Worm Act

WHEREAS, OrgLaw states that to vote in an election, one must have first obtained the age of 14, and

WHEREAS, No law defines the minimum age to submit an application for citizenship, and

WHEREAS, Prospectives under the age of 13 may present a legal problem to the Minister of Immigration and our Government, and

WHEREAS, We should probably patch this hole,

THEREFORE, The Ziu hereby amends subsection E.1. of El Lexhatx which currently reads:

1. Prospective immigrants shall be directed to the Minister of Immigration. The Minister of Immigration shall act on every request received by that office, without discriminating on the basis of party preference, religion, or other personal information.

to state the following:

1. Prospective immigrants who will be age fourteen or older by the next regularly scheduled Balloting Day shall be directed to the Minister of Immigration. The Minister of Immigration shall act on every such request received by that office, without discriminating on the basis of age, political preference, religion, or other personal information.

Noi urent q'estadra sa:
Munditenens Tresplet (Senator, Maricopa)
Alexandreu Davinescu (MC, RUMP)
C. Carlüs Xheraltescù (MC, Liberal Congress)

===

I'm pretty much just resubmitting this bill a second time, with a few minor changes. I'm open to suggestions on anything/everything. (Open for cosponsors as well!)

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

"regularly scheduled General Election"

[Munditenens Tresplet]

Apr 7, 2014 15:10:24 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

"regularly scheduled General Election"

Edited to reflect this. This first bill had the language "regular General Election", and that was an issue with some legislators.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

I don't think the phrase "without discriminating on the basis of age," is needed. Actually, we are discriminating by age -we are telling the immigrant they must be 14 by the time the next General Election if they want to be a Citizen.

Might I suggest that an actual time frame is defined? Like:

1. Prospective immigrants who will be age fourteen or older at least 7 days before the next regularly scheduled General Election shall be directed to the Minister of Immigration.

This would put a specific cut off date for eligibility to vote in the GE.

[Lüc da Schir]

What about a month of recess? It's not compulsory to have one, so the next regularly scheduled GE could be six or seven months after the previous. I'd fix that to just six months after the previous GE.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Apr 8, 2014 13:50:14 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

I don't think the phrase "without discriminating on the basis of age," is needed. Actually, we are discriminating by age -we are telling the immigrant they must be 14 by the time the next General Election if they want to be a Citizen.

Might I suggest that an actual time frame is defined? Like:

1. Prospective immigrants who will be age fourteen or older at least 7 days before the next regularly scheduled General Election shall be directed to the Minister of Immigration.

This would put a specific cut off date for eligibility to vote in the GE.

For the first point, maybe we could add "such" before "request". It's true that this bill does impose an age discrimination, but all immigration requests that qualify for forwarding to MinImm should be processed without age discrimination on MinImm's part. For example, if a particular MinImm thought that only people over 18 should be allowed to immigrate, he should not be able to decline to process requests from applicants who meet the statutory age requirement but are under 18.

I agree with your second point insofar as "General Election" is not a specific date. The OrgLaw defines the terms "Balloting Day" and "Election Deadline" (the first and last days of the election period, respectively), so maybe we should make use of one of those terms. E.g., "the next regularly-scheduled Balloting Day."

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

Apr 8, 2014 14:26:41 GMT -6 Lüc da Schir said:

What about a month of recess? It's not compulsory to have one, so the next regularly scheduled GE could be six or seven months after the previous. I'd fix that to just six months after the previous GE.

I agree with you on that. That way it's not affected by the possibility of the a Recess. But instead of basing it on the past GE, set it to the future GE? So, for example - if the next GE begins 15 July, then the next window for Citizenship would close Feb 15th (?).

For the first point, maybe we could add "such" before "request". It's true that this bill does impose an age discrimination, but all immigration requests that qualify for forwarding to MinImm should be processed without age discrimination on MinImm's part.

That would be a logical change, and a good one!

[Munditenens Tresplet]

I'll reply more in depth to some of these comments sometime late tomorrow (I just got back from a late baseball game), but one point: I agree with Sir Siervicul's suggested change regarding the age discrimination phrase (which was prompted by Sir Mick pointing it out, so thanks to both of you!--I figured someone would, and was just waiting until they did xD) and I will edit in a change later.

As to the dates and everything that were suggested by Mick and Luc, I'm not sure my position on it just yet, but I'll comment tomorrow!

[Munditenens Tresplet]

I've added "such" before "request" in the bill, which I mentioned I would do earlier.

On the whole making a fixed date and everything, I personally am torn on the subject. I can potentially see why a fixed date would have its merits. However, I think that creating too much of a window wouldn't be ideal. The prospective could still turn 14 before the Election Deadline (or even before Balloting Day), and if he were a citizen, legally, he would have the right (or obligation) to cast a ballot.

What if the prospective turns 14 two days before Balloting Day? He wouldn't have been able to apply before hand, as he doesn't fit into any of the windows that have been suggested, but he would be able to the minute the clock passes midnight on his birthday. If (by some miracle, as typically the process isn't this efficient) his application is posted that same day, he posts as well that same day, after a fortnight is petitioned for, is recognized immediately by the SoS who gives the Oath to the prospective, who returns it immediately, and receives his Grant of Citizenship that same day, he would be entitled to cast a ballot in the current election. This could happen regardless of any recesses that shift around the schedule. (Which, if I'm correct, the GEs are scheduled according to how many Clarks pass in a Cosa, not a particular period of months?)

Would it not be better for the prospective if he were exposed to our culture and political climate as a citizen well ahead of time, and be able to make a more informed vote?

I do see one possible problem--as Sir Cresti mentioned above, "General Election" isn't organically defined, only "Balloting Day" and "Election Deadline". If I were to change it to "Election Deadline", the citizen could potentially be casting his ballot before he is an "adult" who is Organically able to, which might cause some legal problems down the road. Therefore, I will change "General Election" to "Balloting Day", which actually does set a bit of a window of citizenship--that being 15 days, or the election period--which would in turn, solve the problem of a prospective becoming a citizen in the middle of an election period. I am still open for more discussion on widening the window, but I'd like it if my concerns above were addressed.

[Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun]

I don't think the particular problem, as you stated, with the prospective (not) being exposed to our culture, etc., being important.
For example:
I was naturalised on the 8th of August, I think, as a German citizen and IMMEDIATELY cast my vote - sure, I have been born and raised here, but that is, in a sense, tantamount to our "Examination Period", is it not?

The period serves the purpose for prospective citizens to adjust their views, know stuff, get informed, get involved, etc.
Heavens, fourteen days are by far not enough to know the Kingdom inside out, no! But that's what TALOSSAssistants are for - they provide guidance, insight and help. And then again, I doubt that every citizen who cast their votes in the last General Election, regardless of for whom they voted, is informed and impeccably up-to-date with the Kingdom...

[Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă]

Yeah I like the wording of the bill and can get behind it.

[Munditenens Tresplet]

Apr 10, 2014 15:18:22 GMT -6 Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun said:

I don't think the particular problem, as you stated, with the prospective (not) being exposed to our culture, etc., being important.
For example:
I was naturalised on the 8th of August, I think, as a German citizen and IMMEDIATELY cast my vote - sure, I have been born and raised here, but that is, in a sense, tantamount to our "Examination Period", is it not?

The period serves the purpose for prospective citizens to adjust their views, know stuff, get informed, get involved, etc.
Heavens, fourteen days are by far not enough to know the Kingdom inside out, no! But that's what TALOSSAssistants are for - they provide guidance, insight and help. And then again, I doubt that every citizen who cast their votes in the last General Election, regardless of for whom they voted, is informed and impeccably up-to-date with the Kingdom...

The example I gave was just an example as to how it would relate specifically to the election. We have been immediately allowing prospectives to vote if they become citizens during an election period. I do think, though, that there is a difference in being a citizen than being a prospective looking through the glass for a fortnight. I'm not saying that a prospective can't decide for him/herself during their examination period and then cast a vote, but for one thing, a citizen can be involved with a political party's discussion, while it is generally taboo to try and persuade a prospective one way or the other (broosking).

Barring recesses, elections do generally take place every six months. So basically, all this bill would do is allow someone who is six months or less shy of their 14th birthday to come aboard and join as a citizen of Talossa, and restrict those younger from joining until they are older. Currently, anyone of any age can join, they just can't vote until they turn 14. And while it is true that some of those who are older and have been citizens for quite some time may not be informed and impeccably up-to-date and still cast a vote, this occurrence should be seen as something that is unfortunate, not be used as a justification.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I urge that this bill be put on the next Clark, and would love to co-sponsor, if the sponsor is accepting such.

[C. Carlüs Xheraltescù]

What of citizens who are currently 13 but won't be 14 before the next election? I would propose an amnesty clause that would make sure we don't kick out and lose any of our citizens as a consequence of this change of law. Thoughts?

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

May 7, 2014 7:10:52 GMT -6 C. Carlüs Xheraltescù said:

What of citizens who are currently 13 but won't be 14 before the next election? I would propose an amnesty clause that would make sure we don't kick out and lose any of our citizens as a consequence of this change of law. Thoughts?

In that this should be an Amendment ( replacing the section of Article VII: Elections to the Cosâ , Section 1 ), The earliest it would go into effect would be September of 2014.

I believe that all of our 13 year old citizens will be 14 years old by then.