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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 26, 2014 16:07:38 GMT -6
OOOOH, that thingy after "bù" is "speak". I knew that I knew it from somewhere, JAPANESE CLASS!
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 26, 2014 19:02:16 GMT -6
Instead of an automatic referendum process upon 20% of the population signing a petition, why not start with a simple reform to provide a mechanism for submitting a petition but let these petitions be non-binding. If there is sufficient support for certain petitions, I dare say our legislators might do the rational thing and sponsor those bills, which might increase their electoral prospects. If this becomes a mechanism which sees a lot of use, maybe then we should consider moving to a 20% Referendum scheme, though I would still have my doubts.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 26, 2014 19:27:00 GMT -6
The only tricky part would be to exclude legislators from the ability of co-signing (as citizens) such "binding petitions".
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Feb 26, 2014 19:30:47 GMT -6
The only tricky part would be to exclude legislators from the ability of co-signing (as citizens) such "binding petitions". Why would that be necessary? Isn't a legislator not also a citizen? In my own real world experience, I don't believe I've ever heard of an elected official not being allowed to sign a petition for a referendum or initiative.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 27, 2014 6:34:02 GMT -6
Because, dear D:r dal Nordselva, in other parts of the world, one elected official only is not entitled to bindingly submit a petition, whereas in Talossa, due to its size, it is possible and that would be an unfair advantage of the elected officials.
What happens, if an MC decides to participate in an initiative? Does that mean that the initiative is automatically binding for the whole Ziu to vote upon, seeing that if he would just have submitted the bill himself, it would be automatically entered the Clark when he submits it thither, without needing 20% of the population to support it, etc.?
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 27, 2014 6:41:00 GMT -6
For the law to be passed, it would require a majority of seats to be cast in favour of the bill. Given that our MCs are representative of the population, surely the status quo is sufficient in this respect?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 27, 2014 6:45:03 GMT -6
Because, dear D:r dal Nordselva, in other parts of the world, one elected official only is not entitled to bindingly submit a petition, whereas in Talossa, due to its size, it is possible and that would be an unfair advantage of the elected officials. What happens, if an MC decides to participate in an initiative? Does that mean that the initiative is automatically binding for the whole Ziu to vote upon, seeing that if he would just have submitted the bill himself, it would be automatically entered the Clark when he submits it thither, without needing 20% of the population to support it, etc.? I don't understand this. Could you rephrase and explain what you mean here? What is the danger?
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 27, 2014 6:54:29 GMT -6
Because, dear D:r dal Nordselva, in other parts of the world, one elected official only is not entitled to bindingly submit a petition, whereas in Talossa, due to its size, it is possible and that would be an unfair advantage of the elected officials. What happens, if an MC decides to participate in an initiative? Does that mean that the initiative is automatically binding for the whole Ziu to vote upon, seeing that if he would just have submitted the bill himself, it would be automatically entered the Clark when he submits it thither, without needing 20% of the population to support it, etc.? I don't understand this. Could you rephrase and explain what you mean here? What is the danger? Certainly: If any MZ drafted a bill and submitted it to the Clark, it would be voted upon. If any (non-MZ) citizen drafted a bill and no MZ co-signed/submitted it to the Clark, it would not be eligible for voting. If, however, subsequent to any act the Ziu might pass, (let's say) 20% of (non-MZ) citizens would co-sign a petition or a bill, it would be submitted to the Clark and would be eligible for voting. Now, if any member of the Ziu co-signed a petition of non-MZ citizens as the second person to co-sign it, what would that mean for the bill? Would it still be a petition and need a whole of 20%, or would it be automatically regarded eligible for submission to the Clark? I am not saying we must bar MMZ from co-signing it (I even find it good for citizens, let's say we have only 10%, but an MZ still finds the petition good, co-signs it and BOOM! it's on our plates of voting), but we should at least explain in an Act what the co-signing of a petition or non-MZ citizens' bill would mean for that particular bill.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 27, 2014 6:59:12 GMT -6
Petitions as advisory campaigns indicating popular non-MZ support is the way to go about it. You don't need a 20% rule or start banning MZs from signing petitions. Petitions, you must remember, are indications of support for a general action - they're not bills authored by the public.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 27, 2014 8:24:48 GMT -6
Wouldn't the Petition at some point have to written up as a Bill, and then submitted to the Hopper? Those rules are still in place.
I would suggest we have a "Citizens" forum where non-Cosa members could discuss the issue, and then a MC or Senator could comment on the Petition.
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Feb 27, 2014 8:51:17 GMT -6
Wouldn't the Petition at some point have to written up as a Bill, and then submitted to the Hopper? Those rules are still in place. I would suggest we have a "Citizens" forum where non-Cosa members could discuss the issue, and then a MC or Senator could comment on the Petition. In the republic we had a lower house and a Senate where only legislators could discuss, and a corridor outside where the public could comment and throw out suggestions. I preferred that setup to the one here.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 27, 2014 8:52:27 GMT -6
Oh of course, all I'm saying is that petitions don't necessarily mean bills, they just mean people sign up to support a particular action. If a petition has enough support, I'm sure one of our legislators will happily sponsor it in the Hopper. It needs no radical reform, I don't think, though making the petitioning mechanism more accessible to citizens, making it easier for citizens to discuss this would be good.
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