Lüc da Schir
Senator for Benito
If Italy wins a Six Nations match I will join the Zouaves
Posts: 4,125 
Talossan Since: 3-21-2012
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Post by Lüc da Schir on Feb 20, 2014 14:42:23 GMT -6
WHEREAS the Organic Law doesn't currently allow a member of the Cabinet who is neither holding Cosâ nor Senate seats to submit legislative proposals; and
WHEREAS if a Minister has no seats in the Ziu but wants to propose an act, he compulsorily has to ask a Member of the Ziu to enact it on his behalf; and
WHEREAS this is kind of weird, as an act about currency written by the Minister of Finance, if he isn't a member of the Ziu, has to be presented e.g. by the Minister of Defence and vice-versa, which definitively mixes up stuff; and
WHEREAS some Talossans that are not currently sitting in the Ziu because they are either unaffiliated or have immigrated recently may want to submit legislative proposal too; and
WHEREAS in many countries there are provisions to allow a group of citizens to submit acts (Popular Initiative); and
WHEREAS it is in no way harmful to Talossa if citizens could participate in national politics even if they are unaffiliated, and they do not wish to get seats on behalf of a party, or they are newly immigrated citizens, to prevent a rush towards the first party that gives them seats regardless of their political attitudes;
THEREFORE be it it recommended by the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa that the amendment to Article IX of the Organic Law specified below be ratified by referendum to effect the following changes:
Section 2, which currently reads:
Any Member of the Cosâ, or Senator, or the King, shall have the right to submit legislative proposals and bills to the Secretary of State for consideration by the Ziu according to the procedures specified in this article.
Is amended to read:
Any Member of the Cosâ, or Senator, or the King, or any Minister of His Majesty's Government, shall have the right to submit legislative proposals and bills to the Secretary of State for consideration by the Ziu according to the procedures specified in this article.
FURTHERMORE a new section is added after Section 2, with the following text:
[Section 3]
Any citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa shall have the right to submit legislative proposals and bills to the Secretary of State for consideration by the Ziu according to the procedures specified in this article. Said legislative proposals and bills shall receive the cosponsorship of a number of Members of the Cosa and Senators whose total number of seats is no less than thirty. In this counting, each Senator is deemed to hold ten seats.
FURTHER-FURTHERMORE, Sections 3 to 9 are renumbered accordingly.
Ureu q'estadra sa
Lüc da Schir (MC, Minister of Stuff, MRPT)
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Feb 20, 2014 15:57:54 GMT -6
If I were not a legislator, and if I decided to be obnoxious, what would stop me from submitting a bill every day of the week? Or three every day? Or the same one every day?
Electoral accountability helps ensure responsible legislative practice, as well as the comity of colleagues. Removing that is a slippery slope to chaos.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 20, 2014 16:15:59 GMT -6
I would like to see maybe a Bill co-sponsored by other non-Ziu citizens (let's say 4 or 5) and by at least one MC, in order to be eligible for submission to the Clark?
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 20, 2014 16:20:04 GMT -6
I would like to see maybe a Bill co-sponsored by other non-Ziu citizens (let's say 4 or 5) and by at least one MC, in order to be eligible for submission to the Clark? There would be no point in legislating for that, given that if one MC supported the legislation it would be eligible to be Clarked. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 20, 2014 17:02:28 GMT -6
Okay, so I understand not this: "Said legislative proposals and bills shall receive the cosponsorship of a number of Members of the Cosa and Senators whose total number of seats is no less than thirty."
Wants somebody to explain?
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 20, 2014 17:15:30 GMT -6
Okay, so I understand not this: " Said legislative proposals and bills shall receive the cosponsorship of a number of Members of the Cosa and Senators whose total number of seats is no less than thirty." Wants somebody to explain? It's generally good practice to cite where you're quoting from, because right now I'm not sure what you're talking about. |
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Feb 20, 2014 17:23:28 GMT -6
Okay, so I understand not this: " Said legislative proposals and bills shall receive the cosponsorship of a number of Members of the Cosa and Senators whose total number of seats is no less than thirty." Wants somebody to explain? It's generally good practice to cite where you're quoting from, because right now I'm not sure what you're talking about. Why I'm quoting the "FURTHERMORE"-section of the proposed bill, of course! |
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 20, 2014 18:04:17 GMT -6
Ah yes, sorry - minor brain-fart. But yes, my comment was a more general point, it just happened to be directed at you because of your comment. This bill is unnecessary. If a citizen's bill has merit, a single legislator's sponsorship should be enough to have it Clarked; requiring the representation of 30 seats to have it even considered by the Ziu is undemocratic and has no place in Talossa.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 20, 2014 18:51:42 GMT -6
Ah yes, sorry - minor brain-fart. But yes, my comment was a more general point, it just happened to be directed at you because of your comment. This bill is unnecessary. If a citizen's bill has merit, a single legislator's sponsorship should be enough to have it Clarked; requiring the representation of 30 seats to have it even considered by the Ziu is undemocratic and has no place in Talossa. I agree. The current situation works just fine where any citizen can propose a bill and then any member of the Ziu can sponsor it as normal. The text in this bill, in fact, makes it more difficult for citizens to propose legislation. I would say the only flaw in the current way of working is that authorship credit is lost. Perhaps, that is the only thing that needs changing. ie: Bills can be submitted by any citizen to the Hopper > The bill must have a sponsor from the Ziu for Clarking, but somewhere under the sponsors list we have an 'authored by' tag ? |
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Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă
Puisne (Associate) Justice of the Uppermost Court
Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
Posts: 4,063
Talossan Since: 9-23-2012
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Post by Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă on Feb 20, 2014 19:13:32 GMT -6
I would agree with Edo and others. This bill is kind of unnecessary when right now proposing bills is simpler than under this idea. I also like the idea of having some way of denoting authorship (other than simply in the WHEREAS).
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Post by Ián B. Anglatzarâ on Feb 21, 2014 1:42:17 GMT -6
I very strongly believe that bills should be authored and proposed by elected politicians. If you want to author bills, run for office.
Moves towards direct democracy are a sure way of losing my vote in the next general election.
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Sir C. M. Siervicül
Posts: 9,636
Talossan Since: 8-13-2005
Knight Since: 7-28-2007
Motto: Nonnisi Deo serviendum
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Post by Sir C. M. Siervicül on Feb 21, 2014 15:00:49 GMT -6
I agree with S:reu Anglatzara. The Ziu should have control of its own business.
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Post by Eðo Grischun on Feb 21, 2014 18:56:50 GMT -6
Its not a move towards anything. It's how things are at present. 'The Hopper is an informal lounge where legislative proposals are floated, debated ...'
Elected politicians are always going to be the primary sponsors and voters of what becomes law. Bills can only be officially proposed by politicians irregardless of who wrote the words. The parliament will always have control over its own affairs.
If I wanted to I could write a legislative proposal (albeit crudely) and send it off to my member of parliament here in the UK. I could have it printed in a newspaper if I so wished or plaster it on noticeboards. It won't go anywhere or become law unless an elected MP decides he likes my proposal and runs with it.
That's how the Hopper works. It's not a tool of direct democracy, rather a tool for lobbying our elected officials.
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on Feb 21, 2014 19:43:33 GMT -6
The only difference is that here a bill needs to be floated around the Hopper for a period of time before it can be considered by the Ziu.
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Post by Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. on Feb 24, 2014 4:54:21 GMT -6
Can I propose the following counter-bill:
WHEREAS the Organic Law doesn't currently allow a member of the Cabinet who is neither holding Cosâ nor Senate seats to submit legislative proposals; and
WHEREAS if a Minister has no seats in the Ziu but wants to propose an act, he compulsorily has to ask a Member of the Ziu to enact it on his behalf; and
WHEREAS this is kind of weird, as an act about currency written by the Minister of Finance, if he isn't a member of the Ziu, has to be presented e.g. by the Minister of Defence and vice-versa, which definitively mixes up stuff; and
WHEREAS some Talossans that are not currently sitting in the Ziu because they are either unaffiliated or have immigrated recently may want to submit legislative proposal too; and
WHEREAS in many countries there are provisions to allow a group of citizens to submit acts (Popular Initiative); and
WHEREAS it is in no way harmful to Talossa if citizens could participate in national politics even if they are unaffiliated, and they do not wish to get seats on behalf of a party, or they are newly immigrated citizens, to prevent a rush towards the first party that gives them seats regardless of their political attitudes;
THEREFORE be it it recommended by the Ziu of the Kingdom of Talossa that the amendment to Article IX of the Organic Law specified below be ratified by referendum to effect the following changes:
Section 2, which currently reads:
Any Member of the Cosâ, or Senator, or the King, shall have the right to submit legislative proposals and bills to the Secretary of State for consideration by the Ziu according to the procedures specified in this article.
Is amended to read:
Any Member of the Cosâ, or Senator, or the King, or any Minister of His Majesty's Government, or any chief officer of a Royal Household shall have the right to submit legislative proposals and bills to the Secretary of State for consideration by the Ziu according to the procedures specified in this article.
FURTHERMORE a new section is added after Section 2, with the following text:
[Section 3]
Any citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa shall have the right to submit legislative proposals and bills to the Secretary of State for consideration by the Ziu according to the procedures specified in this article. Said legislative proposals and bills shall receive the cosponsorship of a number of Members of the Cosa and Senators whose total number of seats is no less than 15% of the seats in the Cosa. In this counting, each Senator is deemed to hold seats equal to 5% of the seats in the Cosa.
FURTHER-FURTHERMORE, Sections 3 to 9 are renumbered accordingly.
Ureu q'estadra sa
Lüc da Schir (MC, Minister of Stuff, MRPT)
Marti-Pair Furxheir (Secretary of State)
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Why the 3 changes:
1 ) I am adding the officer of the Royal Household. I have been an advocate for now a decade that the Secretary of State should be able to propose bills without having to sit in the Ziu. The President of the University of Talossa might want to propose an education reform, etc... without being politicians.
2 ) The number of seats in the Cosa might change over time. There was a proposal to change it to 60 seats recently. As a result, if we amend the number of seats and this amendment is in place, we will end up needed to amend the Organic law in 2 places: getting 30 seats in 60 seats Cosa is a lot harder than with a 200 seat cosa.
3 ) And the absolute "strength" of a Senator is also variable
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