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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 5, 2014 10:39:58 GMT -6
I thought of that, too, but then I thought: "Nah" and changed it to how I posted it above. Okay, I agree to that change. It's a compromise I can live with, at least. What disagreements were left? And I am asking everyone, save Senator Preston who has explicitly denounced this bill, to contribute with disagreements or plaudits! Ah yes, the Third Covenant. How should it ideally sound to you, dear Sir Alexandreu Davinescu?
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on Mar 9, 2014 9:23:37 GMT -6
Any word on this amendment?
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on Mar 10, 2014 16:38:32 GMT -6
I'm still trying to think of a version of some of this language that might pass muster. It's pretty hard.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 24, 2014 13:17:23 GMT -6
WHEREAS the Organic Law, and especially, the Covenant of Rights have been designed for the protection of the people against the state and other people; and, WHEREAS it seems to be against any humanitarian reason that the Covenants are only guaranteed to Citizens of Talossa, but not eventual refugees we might get, or tourists, prospectives, or visitors; and, WHEREAS I would like to think that we have no policy of Guantánamobaying non-Talossan citizens when they commit any crime; now THEREFORE the Ziu approves that the following changes to the Organic Law's Covenant of Rights be commended to the citizenry for ratification: - THE PREAMBLE, which currently reads:The Covenant of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in them to all Talossan citizens, subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. These Covenants shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with Talossan custom and tradition, and with the aim in mind of preserving and enhancing the ethnic heritage of the Talossan nation and the peace, order, and good government for the Kingdom of Talossa.shall be amended to read: The Covenant of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in them to every person, subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. These Covenants shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with Talossan custom and tradition, and with the aim in mind of preserving and enhancing the ethnic heritage of the Talossan nation and the peace, order, and good government for the Kingdom of Talossa.- THE THIRD COVENANT, which currently reads:Talossans have the right to peaceful assembly whether in private facilities or in the open air, provided that such assembly neither disrupts traffic or legal commercial activity, or unduly inconveniences people. Talossans have the right to freely organize political parties and other organizations, subject to their own laws of membership, and this right may not be abridged except with regards to organizations which advocate the use of violence or intimidation to attain political or other ends, or which seek to restrain any person or group of people from the exercise of their rights as granted under these Covenants. shall be amended to read: Every person has the right to peaceful assembly, whether in private facilities or in the open air, provided that such assembly neither disrupts traffic or legal commercial activity, nor unduly inconveniences people. Every person has the right to freely organise any kinds of organisations, subject to their own laws of membership, and this right may not be abridged except with regards to organisations which advocate the use of violence or intimidation to attain political or other ends, or which seek to restrain any person or group of people from the exercise of their rights as granted under these Covenants. However, political parties may only be registered and headed by Talossan citizens, in order to preserve the political power vested in the people of Talossa. Notwithstanding this limitation for the political parties, political parties are subject to their own laws of membership.- THE FOURTH COVENANT, which currently reads:Under the principle that "A Man's Room is His Kingdom," the right of the people to privacy and security in their persons, homes, papers, correspondence, and property, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended. No person may be arrested or detained without a warrant issued by a judge, except in cases of flagrante delicto. No warrants shall be issued except on probable cause, and must particularly describe the place to be searched and the person or things to be seized. The right to privacy for public figures must be balanced by the public's right to know, in matters affecting politics, elections, campaigns, and governing. The intentional withholding of political information which reasonable voters might find helpful, profitable, or informative, violates the public's right to know. shall be amended to read: Under the principle that "A Man's Room is His Kingdom," any person's right to privacy and security in their persons, homes, papers, correspondence, and property, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended. No person may be arrested or detained without a warrant issued by a judge, except in cases of flagrante delicto. No warrants shall be issued except on probable cause, and must particularly describe the place to be searched and the person or things to be seized. The right to privacy for public figures must be balanced by the public's right to know, in matters affecting politics, elections, campaigns, and governing. The intentional withholding of political information which reasonable voters might find helpful, profitable, or informative, violates the public's right to know.- THE FIFTH COVENANT, which currently reads:Any person charged with an offence shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and has the right to request information on his legal rights. No accused person shall be twice put in jeopardy of life, liberty, or property for the same offence, or without due process of law; nor shall any citizen be compelled in any criminal case to bear witness against himself. Excessive fines, and cruel and bizarre punishments, shall not be inflicted. shall be amended to read: Any person charged with an offence shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and has the right to request information on his legal rights. No accused person shall be twice put in jeopardy of life, liberty, or property for the same offence, or without due process of law; nor shall any person be compelled in any criminal case to bear witness against himself. Excessive fines, and cruel and bizarre punishments, shall not be inflicted.- THE SEVENTH COVENANT, which currently reads:No person shall be found guilty on account of any act or omission, unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Talossan or international law, or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of civilized nations, as interpreted by Talossan courts in line with Talossan traditions and needs. will be amended to read followingly, because international law does not apply to Talossa and convicting someone in a Talossan court of law because Lala-Land prohibits dancing with your shoes on is not cool: No person shall be found guilty on account of any act or omission, unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Talossan law, or under an international law recognised by the Kingdom of Talossa, or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by the community of civilized nations, as interpreted by Talossan courts in line with Talossan traditions and needs.- THE EIGHTH COVENANT, which currently reads:Talossa shall never tax nor purport to tax, unduly burden, outlaw or abridge for its citizens any right to acts of: peaceful assembly; religious worship or affiliation; political speech or expression or affiliation; religious or historical or scientific or philosophical belief; abortion (being the freely conscious ability for a woman to make a determination on the continuation of her pregnancy); consensual sexual activity (between two consenting people of an age of responsibility); contraception; marriage (between consenting adults regardless of their sex, unless they are consanguineous up to the fourth degree of relationship), civil unions (and equivalents); divorce; adoption; advance health care directives; attempted suicide; euthanasia; the reading of any book; and the writing or use of any language. Neither shall any person be made to answer in any Talossan court for the alleged, admitted, or actual violation of any foreign law restricting or denying any right to or forbidding any act enumerated above. shall be amended to read: Talossa shall never tax nor purport to tax, unduly burden, outlaw or abridge for any person any right to acts of: peaceful assembly; religious worship or affiliation; political speech or expression or affiliation; religious or historical or scientific or philosophical belief; abortion (being the freely conscious ability for a woman to make a determination on the continuation of her pregnancy); consensual sexual activity (between two consenting people of an age of responsibility); contraception; marriage (between consenting adults regardless of their sex, unless they are consanguineous up to the fourth degree of relationship), civil unions (and equivalents); divorce; adoption; advance health care directives; attempted suicide; euthanasia; the reading of any book; and the writing or use of any language. Neither shall any person be made to answer in any Talossan court for the alleged, admitted, or actual violation of any foreign law restricting or denying any right to or forbidding any act enumerated above. Uréu q'estadra så: Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun (MC / MRPT) Okay, people. Let's get the discussion out on the table. Many were against this, the last time, but let me say it again: When I am a tourist in France, I, as a German citizen, want to be protected by the same laws, and given the right to a fair trial, as possesses every French citizen there! And so, I want that every tourist in the GTA feel safe, when travelling in or through our Kingdom, because the laws apply to them, as well, and not only to Talossans (making non-Talossans essentially outlawed).
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 24, 2014 14:00:50 GMT -6
I think that if you drop the Third Covenant changes, you'd be able to sail it through the Ziu without any difficulty. I'd certainly vote for it. I'm really loathe to give non-citizens the Organic right to interfere in our politics, and I think many other people rightly are, too.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 24, 2014 16:07:47 GMT -6
I think that if you drop the Third Covenant changes, you'd be able to sail it through the Ziu without any difficulty. I'd certainly vote for it. I'm really loathe to give non-citizens the Organic right to interfere in our politics, and I think many other people rightly are, too. I agree. I would not vote Per on this if the 3rd Covenant is changed. As for the rest "sailing through the Ziu" ... that still remains to be seen.
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Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN
Seneschal
the new Jim Hacker
Posts: 6,635
Talossan Since: 6-25-2004
Dame Since: 9-8-2012
Motto: Expulseascâ, reveneascâ
Baron Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
Duke Since: Feudal titles are for gimps
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Post by Miestrâ Schivâ, UrN on May 25, 2014 0:55:39 GMT -6
So basically, the conservative faction are terrified that a non-citizen will help set up a political party? That really smacks of old-school suspicion of outsiders, of the kind of persecution which the late 90's Liberals faced because of their Penguinean friends.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 8:00:02 GMT -6
That's not a very productive way to argue, don't you think? Choose something relatively harmless, phrase it so that it seems even more harmless, and then accuse us of being "terrified" off this harmless thing while making an unpleasant comparison?
Why don't you stop for a moment and think about it from our point of view? I bet that you can think of some of the real reasons we're leery here, rather than straw men.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 25, 2014 8:02:05 GMT -6
This is the current version of the Third Covenant:
Talossans have the right to peaceful assembly whether in private facilities or in the open air, provided that such assembly neither disrupts traffic or legal commercial activity, or unduly inconveniences people. Talossans have the right to freely organize political parties and other organizations, subject to their own laws of membership, and this right may not be abridged except with regards to organizations which advocate the use of violence or intimidation to attain political or other ends, or which seek to restrain any person or group of people from the exercise of their rights as granted under these Covenants.
This is the current proposed amendment thereof:
Every person has the right to peaceful assembly, whether in private facilities or in the open air, provided that such assembly neither disrupts traffic or legal commercial activity, nor unduly inconveniences people. Every person has the right to freely organise any kinds of organisations, subject to their own laws of membership, and this right may not be abridged except with regards to organisations which advocate the use of violence or intimidation to attain political or other ends, or which seek to restrain any person or group of people from the exercise of their rights as granted under these Covenants. However, political parties may only be registered and headed by Talossan citizens, in order to preserve the political power vested in the people of Talossa. Notwithstanding this limitation for the political parties, political parties are subject to their own laws of membership.
Are you OK with this compromise (or a similar one, which you may gladly propose)?:
Every person has the right to peaceful assembly, whether in private facilities or in the open air, provided that such assembly neither disrupts traffic or legal commercial activity, nor unduly inconveniences people. Every person has the right to freely organise any kinds of organisations, excluding non-citizens, who may organise any kinds of organisations excepting political parties. These organisations are subject to their own laws of membership, and this right may not be abridged except with regards to organisations which advocate the use of violence or intimidation to attain political or other ends, or which seek to restrain any person or group of people from the exercise of their rights as granted under these Covenants.
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 8:36:34 GMT -6
I see little harm in permitting everyone the right of peaceable assembly, so that initial change seems fine. But the Ziu should be able to restrict non-citizen participation in organizations, I think, if they choose to do so (although there's no reason to do so).
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 25, 2014 9:12:52 GMT -6
What reason might the Ziu have in future to restrict non-citizens the participation in.. oh, say... a labour union?
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Post by C. Carlüs Xheraltescù on May 25, 2014 9:18:04 GMT -6
Why should the Ziu be able to decide how private organisations organise their membership? Why should the Ziu be able to tell organisations who can or cannot join them? Further, there's nothing wrong with prospective citizens creating their own party if they so wish; they still won't be able to vote or sit in the Ziu until they've successfully immigrated. I'm not entirely sure what the problem is here...
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Post by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on May 25, 2014 9:42:07 GMT -6
Probably not a labor union, which would be good for some very hypothetical future group. But a lobbying group: surely the Ziu needs to be able, in the distant future, to restrict noncitizens and their money from them.
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Post by Magniloqueu Épiqeu da Lhiun on May 25, 2014 9:59:43 GMT -6
Mind you: Abusus non tollit usum, sed confirmat substantiam!
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on May 25, 2014 10:35:58 GMT -6
Can someone remind me why we need to change the Covenants? I seemed to have missed who was wronged by the current wording of the OrgLaws?
What travesty occurred that prompted this?
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