After 9 years offline, I present to you, the Talossa DB

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Hi Everyone,

I had asked help to get the Talossan name of citizens, but I found on the Kingdom's website the list of all current citizens, and in the wiki, the Talossan name of a few former citizens.

You can see it at: www.talossa.ca/files/

I thought it would take longer, but it is working now.

The one thing that I ask, is that you do NOT start copying information from it and almost histerically start plugging the Wiki with missing information.

It was offline 9 years, we can take our time. I am not going anywhere.

There are urgent tasks to do to the database, the first one being to put Talossan names to citizens which now have one but didn't have one then.

The second one being to mark the ex-citizens as ex-citizens, starting with Ben.

The third one will be to have a discussion about what we do with it.

I am willing to put some hours to make it official once more, starting by putting the new citizens in, the election results, the cosa, the clarks, etc... from the past 9 years.

I can also improve the look, the functions, put REST apis so what other websites can interact with it, etc...

What are your thoughts?

PS: I still need to repair the search bill function.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I would suggest that most of these tasks are a bad idea, and we should instead simply preserve this as a historical archive and supplement our current records with it. We certainly should not start trying to use this format again, since it has already shown its weakness (being reliant on a single person). I am admittedly prejudiced in favor of the wiki, since I've put a lot of time into it, but I really think the current format is far superior. We have a team of scribes and administrators rather than just one person, and it's easier to use even than the preceding kot.net version.

EDIT: There is some stuff here that wasn't in any of the saved archive.org versions, which is great.

[Sir C. M. Siervicül]

Jul 4, 2013 15:08:05 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

I am admittedly prejudiced in favor of the wiki, since I've put a lot of time into it, but I really think the current format is far superior. We have a team of scribes and administrators rather than just one person, and it's easier to use even than the preceding kot.net version.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of wikis for official sites. To me, a wiki has a certain air of informality to it. I'm not aware of any national government or government agency that uses a wiki for its web site.

[D. N. Vercáriâ]

Unrelatedly, we should rely on teamwork as much as we can, when it comes to webspace, databases and what not. I still remember how this perfect artwork with dicussion forums, homepage content management, electronic voting and what not went under in no time when you quit the Republic and left us behind. I know there were serious reasons to let us down, but still the lesson is learned that a nationette like Talossa should not rely on the one single glorious web wizzard who will keep the tricky infrastrcture alive forever.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Jul 4, 2013 15:08:05 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

I would suggest that most of these tasks are a bad idea, and we should instead simply preserve this as a historical archive and supplement our current records with it. We certainly should not start trying to use this format again, since it has already shown its weakness (being reliant on a single person). I am admittedly prejudiced in favor of the wiki, since I've put a lot of time into it, but I really think the current format is far superior. We have a team of scribes and administrators rather than just one person, and it's easier to use even than the preceding kot.net version.

EDIT: There is some stuff here that wasn't in any of the saved archive.org versions, which is great.

But that's my point. I don't want the Database to be a single-man job. I never did! I asked for help for years and no one wanted. I proposed to supply tools to make it as easy to maintain the database with my help, easier than a wiki because the formatting is automatic.

No one responded. No one came forward. No one helped. But when I left, they cried.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Also, I am not talking about replacing the Wiki. the Wiki is AMAZING and serves a very important job.

I am talking about putting the official secured business the database used to do, like accepting bills, letting members of the Cosa and Senate vote on them, managing elections and election results (automatically, no need to make the calcs, I already coded them and can adjust them as laws change).

Then, about making a wiki ready output that can be pasted into the wiki, or perhaps write a module which can autopublish to the wiki (that's usually easy to do) so that the WIKI is always up to date easily.

But, that's only for a small portion of what the Wiki covers!!! The list of Ministers? not in the DB, probably never will be. Only the SoS and PM are tracked.

Textual description of the achievements of citizens? Much better in the wiki.

Description of the ministries? Only in the wiki.

I am talking about generating the Cosa seat charts from the database to that they don't have to be manually types anymore by anyone.

I am talking about generating the Cosa members votes on the bills from the database too.

About a fully linked and formal system, on top of which the Wiki can be built.

I am talking about making this system OPEN, so it doesn't rely just on me. So it can outlive me. I offered in 2002 and 2003, no one wanted to help.

I can do all of the coding, but I want the new DB to be open and transparent. I want to make export forms so that any citizen can download voting tables, etc...

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Jul 4, 2013 15:28:09 GMT -6 D. N. Vercáriâ said:

Unrelatedly, we should rely on teamwork as much as we can, when it comes to webspace, databases and what not. I still remember how this perfect artwork with dicussion forums, homepage content management, electronic voting and what not went under in no time when you quit the Republic and left us behind. I know there were serious reasons to let us down, but still the lesson is learned that a nationette like Talossa should not rely on the one single glorious web wizzard who will keep the tricky infrastrcture alive forever.

I agree, like I said already, I offered a few times to share the load, but people were happy to let me work and just bother with politics.


No one wondered what was going on under the hood because I was the most active citizen, probably the most respected one, and I was good buddy with the King.


No one anticipated that the King would turn on me. I suggest you take a peak at my explanation on my "omnibus thread" about my reasons.


But I don't want to do that again. I don't want to be the single point of failure again, simply because I used to be and ended up disapointing everyone.


I want team work. I want eventually at least one backup of the database outside of my control, so that if I get hit by a bus, you guys can find someone to take my place.


Of course, I would want to still be the lead guy: I spend something like 2000 hours building it, testing it, and finding and entering the information.  But being the lead guy and being the only guy are two different things.


Back in 2002 and 2003, no one really wanted to help. I think Godafrieu helped with some data entry, but I am not 100% sure. Today, I would want a more collaborative process, and an integration with the Wiki so that the information in the db is pushed to the wiki, which I do not control in any way.

That way, data will be in at least 2 places.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Well, don't worry. I assure you that, whatever happens, we've learned the perils of trusting all the data to any one person or any one place. In fact, if you'd let me know the size of the tarball (or whatever) that holds your backup of the database, we can make a move to back it up right now.

Some automated modules and things would be great as a front-end and professional presentation for our official data. We vote publicly, but the SoS is at liberty to also adopt any technical solutions he might prefer, as well.

I am the Minister of Stuff - perhaps you'd be interesting in joining the ministry and talking about some solutions?

[Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h]

I agree with AD about leaving it as-is, save of course for the Talossan-language names. Let this stand as an archive of our shared history, and THANK YOU for putting it back online!

[Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h]

Five of the seven then-Senators on 1 June 2004 joined the Republic. A sixth joined the Republic soon thereafter. Six of seven Senators gone... I knew the carnage was immense, but I did not remember how much so.

History, I believe, should show M-P as being part of the Third Mass-Exodus from the Kingdom, the First being Wardlow and Co. in 1997-8 and the Second being the TLP in June 2001.

And M-P, I cannot emphasize enough for you the necessity and virtue of trusting in today's Kingdom civil-service. Never before in Talossa's history has the infrastructure underpinning our legislative and technological workings been executed in such a delegated and collegial fashion with many, many people working on projects devoid of the reliance on one single individual to hold up everything.

The single-person model when it works works brilliantly, but when it fails, as it did with the Talossa Database System in 2004, it does so spectacularly and utterly - a double-edged sword neither you or us want to bring back to our Talossan lives.

Again, let the Database remain as-is. It is a relic of history restored and stands as stark testimony to the stupidity that was 2003-2004.

[D. N. Vercáriâ]

Jul 4, 2013 17:20:15 GMT -6 Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H. said:

Jul 4, 2013 15:28:09 GMT -6 D. N. Vercáriâ said:

Unrelatedly, we should rely on teamwork as much as we can, when it comes to webspace, databases and what not. I still remember how this perfect artwork with dicussion forums, homepage content management, electronic voting and what not went under in no time when you quit the Republic and left us behind. I know there were serious reasons to let us down, but still the lesson is learned that a nationette like Talossa should not rely on the one single glorious web wizzard who will keep the tricky infrastrcture alive forever.

I agree, like I said already, I offered a few times to share the load, but people were happy to let me work and just bother with politics.

As for the Republic, there was a serious lack of manpower in field of webhosting and maintainance affairs, so whosoever stepped forward to do the related jobs had to find out that they began to stick and to become burdensome after a while.

The reunited Talossa has a much more solid fundament in this, with quite some volunteers who are contributing their skills to common projects. It was one reason why we of the republican variety thought that a Talossan reunion was inevitable, and that the time had come to get over the split quickly, because otherwise, truth be told, the Republic would have seriously been endangered by a quick and unordered decay.

[Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h]

What really killed off the Republic in the end was Ben's leaving the Kingdom. His remaining in the Kingdom was not only justification for our existence, but it was the fuel that kept our mojo going. Once he and Amy were out of the picture, there was then no longer a justification for our keeping ourselves apart, and this is also the time from which dates the rough start of our decline. Why we stayed away is still being talked about, and I"m not quite sure both sides have fully expressed their feelings or have had their real 'come to Jesus' moment with each other yet.

Reunision may have happened de jure, but if truth be told, it has not fully come to pass with everyone on both sides of the former Vuode Wall.

[D. N. Vercáriâ]

From my p.o.v. it was the Republic that kept the Republic going. Maybe the bit of Penguinea therein, too. Building up something new on the fundament of something that existed since 1979 was a big thrilling intellectual adventure, as long as it was about being part of a flourishing community.

I didn't care much about Ben, except that I always found it highly irrational that (and how) he successfully intercepted any dialogue between his "subjects" and those who withdrew from his realm. This applied to a Penguinean / Talossan reconciliation as much as to a peaceful Talossan / Talossan coexistence.

As for the reunion, I'm still finding it sad that it had to be some sort of a surrender of one side, but the Kingdom 2.0 and the Republic didn't meet as equals; evidently, from the perspective of the Kingdom it had been the right policy to wait till the exhausted rebels came crawling home. But what really took me by surprise is how many former Talossans have been waiting in the woodwork till "reunision" happened. So, from this perspective, it has been the right thing to come to a formal reconciliation of our split nationette, at least, even if for someone who has been exclusively a past-revolution-republican citizen of Talossa something may be missing now.

[Marti-Pair Furxheir S.H.]

Jul 4, 2013 18:45:37 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

Well, don't worry. I assure you that, whatever happens, we've learned the perils of trusting all the data to any one person or any one place. In fact, if you'd let me know the size of the tarball (or whatever) that holds your backup of the database, we can make a move to back it up right now.

Some automated modules and things would be great as a front-end and professional presentation for our official data. We vote publicly, but the SoS is at liberty to also adopt any technical solutions he might prefer, as well.

I am the Minister of Stuff - perhaps you'd be interesting in joining the ministry and talking about some solutions?

Indeed. I might be interested indeed...

Are you on Skype? my skype is mp[my real last name]

I use it mainly to chat and not to talk that much.

I am also on facebook. I am friends with 10 or so Talossan, so search for my first name and I should pop up. Careful, I have 2 facebooks, one for my personal like and one for my professional one. My talossan friends at in my personal one.

[Ián B. Anglatzarâ]

Jul 5, 2013 2:34:54 GMT -6 Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h said:

What really killed off the Republic in the end was Ben's leaving the Kingdom.

Bah. What killed off the Republic was a failure to recruit new citizens, a problem that 99% of all micronations have.