The "Cantons are Talossan, not American" Amendment

[Iustì Carlüs Canun]

The "Cantons are Talossan, not American" Amendment

WHEREAS Article XVII, Section 1 of the Organic Law divides Provinces into Cantons, which are stated to be equivalent to census tracts, and

WHEREAS the U.S. Census Bureau has changed the borders of the census tracts within the city of Milwaukee, and

WHEREAS Talossa is not part of the United States, so we shouldn't change our historic divisions just because the U.S. thinks we should,

THEREFORE Section 1 of Article XVII is hereby amended to read:

The metropolitan territory of Talossa is subdivided into Cantons (els Cantons) and Provinces. Cantons are defined according to historical borders, but Provinces may, subject to approval by the Ziu, alter these borders, including to create new Cantons. Provinces may also establish such internal subdivisions as they find necessary or convenient for local government. The Canton is the smallest possible territorial subdivision which can be transferred from one Provincial jurisdiction to another.

Uréu q'estadra sa:
S:reu Iustì Canun, UrGP (SRT, MA)

[Munditenens Tresplet]

I support this bill; is there a comparison map that we can use to compare Talossan set borders (at time of Organic) to the US' new borders?

[Istefan Perþonest]

Feb 22, 2012 13:52:54 GMT -6 Munditenens Tresplet said:

I support this bill; is there a comparison map that we can use to compare Talossan set borders (at time of Organic) to the US' new borders?

Yes.

Since the Organic Law was ratified in 1997, the borders this amendment would make permanent are the 1990 ones, and the 1990 Census tract boundaries are available here.

For comparison's sake, the 2000 Census tracts are here, and the 2010 Census tracts are here.

[Eðo Grischun]

Does this only cause confusion with me? Why are we using 1990 if this current Organic Law was ratified much, much later? no? Perhaps it is my complete non-understanding of block groups, census blocks and Census Tracts. It's all so alien

[Brad Holmes]

Feb 24, 2012 6:26:46 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

Does this only cause confusion with me? Why are we using 1990 if this current Organic Law was ratified much, much later? no? Perhaps it is my complete non-understanding of block groups, census blocks and Census Tracts. It's all so alien

The U.S. Census is only conducted every 10 years. So the census available in 1997 was the 1990 census. By 2000, the census had different divisions.

[Eðo Grischun]

Feb 24, 2012 7:38:44 GMT -6 Brad Holmes said:

Feb 24, 2012 6:26:46 GMT -6 Eðo Grischun said:

Does this only cause confusion with me? Why are we using 1990 if this current Organic Law was ratified much, much later? no? Perhaps it is my complete non-understanding of block groups, census blocks and Census Tracts. It's all so alien

The U.S. Census is only conducted every 10 years. So the census available in 1997 was the 1990 census. By 2000, the census had different divisions.

Thanks. This thread has bamboozled me start to finish keeping up with all the numbers and terms.

[Brad Holmes]

Feb 21, 2012 18:56:40 GMT -6 Iustì Carlüs Canun said:

THEREFORE Section 1 of Article XVII is hereby amended to read:

The metropolitan territory of Talossa is subdivided into Townships (els Borgais; census blocks), Parishes (els Pleivs; block groups), Cantons (els Cantons; census tracts as defined at the time of ratification of this Organic Law) and Provinces. The Canton is the smallest possible territorial subdivision which can be transferred from one jurisdiction to another; Townships, Parishes, or smaller areas may not be separated from Cantons or assigned to other Cantons.

Uréu q'estadra sa:
S:reu Iustì Canun, UrGP (SRT, MA)

For even more clarity should this amendment specify the source of the canton division when the OrgLaw was written in 1997?

For example as defined at the time of ratification of this Organic Law by the 1990 U.S. Census

I know it puts a specific U.S. reference in, but as this amendment is clarifying Cantons, why not make it even more specific?

[Ián B. Anglatzarâ]

Feb 24, 2012 7:50:09 GMT -6 Brad Holmes said:

I know it puts a specific U.S. reference in

As long as Obama's state continues to lay claim to our territory, we can't avoid the fact that we're somehow tangled up with said state, anyway.

[Hooligan]

Personally, I have never liked the entanglement. It seems to me that each province should be allowed (freed) to subdivide itself (and modify those subdivisions any time it wishes) as it sees fit, writing its own provincial law saying things like "the canton of such-and-so is bordered by X Street, Y Avenue, Z Boulevard and extends to La Mar Talossan".

Hool

[Istefan Perþonest]

Alternative version, mostly going with 1990 cantons but accommodating the current state of discussions on creating an eighth province, and going with Baron Hooligan's desire for reduction of entanglements:

---

THEREFORE Section 1 of Article XVII is hereby amended to read:

Section 1. The metropolitan territory of Talossa is subdivided into Cantons (els Cantôns) and Provinces. Cantons correspond to the census tracts of the 1990 United States Census, except in the case of tract 153, which shall be divided into two Cantons along the line between 2010 United States Census tracts 1874 and 9800. Provinces consist of whole Cantons or groups thereof, as established by law. Provinces may establish whatever internal subdivisions as they find convenient for administration of local government, but nothing other than whole Cantons shall be assigned to provinces by any act of the Ziu.

[Iustì Carlüs Canun]

The more I looked at this, the less I liked the idea of using the census tracts at all, so I've changed the amendment to include a total divorce of cantons from any US-imposed divisions. Since this hasn't been in the Hopper for ten days, it'll have to wait till the April Clark, so we have a whole other month to discuss.

[Eðo Grischun]

Feb 21, 2012 18:56:40 GMT -6 Iustì Carlüs Canun said:

The "Cantons are Talossan, not American" Amendment

WHEREAS Article XVII, Section 1 of the Organic Law divides Provinces into Cantons, which are stated to be equivalent to census tracts, and

WHEREAS the U.S. Census Bureau has changed the borders of the census tracts within the city of Milwaukee, and

WHEREAS Talossa is not part of the United States, so we shouldn't change our historic divisions just because the U.S. thinks we should,

THEREFORE Section 1 of Article XVII is hereby amended to read:

The metropolitan territory of Talossa is subdivided into Cantons (els Cantons) and Provinces. Cantons are defined according to historical borders, but Provinces may, subject to approval by the Ziu, alter these borders, including to create new Cantons. Provinces may also establish such internal subdivisions as they find necessary or convenient for local government. The Canton is the smallest possible territorial subdivision which can be transferred from one Provincial jurisdiction to another.

Uréu q'estadra sa:
S:reu Iustì Canun, UrGP (SRT, MA)

I like this one.

[Ceváglh Scurznicol]

The one advantage of using the U.S. census districts is that maps of said districts are easily available, and even in a sense neutral because they are done by a foreign government for its purposes without references to any of our political disputes. I would think we would not have to be obliged to change the provincial boundaries when the census districts change, but I think it would be convenient to have the boundaries consistently conform to census district boundaries — any census district boundaries. Presumably we could even use, say, the 1910 census district boundaries, but it might be easier to consistently use them, rather than have a mishmash of the 1910, 1880, 1960, and 2020 boundaries.

[Iustì Carlüs Canun]

I highly doubt there'd be much change, what with the whole "historical borders" type of thing. Even after we change this bit of the OrgLaw, most Provinces would, I think, keep their cantons as-is.