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Post by Cody Ellsworth on Jan 30, 2009 20:58:42 GMT -6
I don't think it's irrelevant at all. It just goes to show you that not everything deemed "official" turns out all that great. I'm just hoping that the people supporting this also have the backbone to actually use the potential sources to let people know about Talossa. If not, it's a damn shame. I honestly don't know what you mean. I didn't even know there was a loophole until like two days ago. So I wasn't exploiting anything. I was merely doing what I thought was right for Talossa. Why no one can see that is beyond me. Why thank you sir, but as far as people not realizing it's not official doesn't make sense. It was the first thing I typed. So if they don't get to that point, they didn't read anything at all. This is also equally applicable to an official site! If they don't realize my myspace page is unofficial, how on Earth are they going to realize that anything else is official??
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2009 9:06:23 GMT -6
Query: given that this forum (and indeed the wider website) is not the "official" online instrument of the Talossan state, but rather a private organ which, effectively, acts on its behalf, should these two websites have an UNOFFICIAL status added? On the KOT.net it says "check out the Kingdom's Forum." That alone gives it such status and it is being run by a member of the government.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2009 9:22:14 GMT -6
I don't think it's irrelevant at all. It just goes to show you that not everything deemed "official" turns out all that great. I'm just hoping that the people supporting this also have the backbone to actually use the potential sources to let people know about Talossa. If not, it's a damn shame. I honestly don't know what you mean. I didn't even know there was a loophole until like two days ago. So I wasn't exploiting anything. I was merely doing what I thought was right for Talossa. Why no one can see that is beyond me. Why thank you sir, but as far as people not realizing it's not official doesn't make sense. It was the first thing I typed. So if they don't get to that point, they didn't read anything at all. This is also equally applicable to an official site! If they don't realize my myspace page is unofficial, how on Earth are they going to realize that anything else is official?? Okay, so let me respond to this mess in one go. The loophole was discovered, you made the choice to continue to exploit rather than work with the government to fix it. That says VOLUMES about you. Here is a screen shot of your page: i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq287/VitoOliver/Picture2.pngThe first thing it does is direct people to KOT.net, in my experience, people would run along over to the KOT net (being as most people don't actually read Myspace profiles anyway) thus giving to the illusion it is official. That being said, you show me ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that would allow people to make pages in its name without first asking those people to ask for permission. Show me, I'll eagerly await. Nobody said everything that is "official" turned out great and your page certainly does not support this notion. But, the possibility of a great page that is unofficial coming to light is addressed. If someone makes a kick ass page, the government may just say "hey keep running it." If the government for any reason says "we'd rather not" the choice then is to hand over the page or to delete it. (or put in noticeable font, which is absent from your page, it is not an official talossan page.) Finally, you are a perspective citizen, you are not a citizen yet, it could still be blocked. Instead of working *with* the government when a problem was pointing out (i.e. the loophole) your exact response is: I <3 loopholes. Basically, you found out it was a loophole and made the choice to continue to exploit it while being smug that you didn't break a law and you enjoyed the fact this happened. (sidenote, do we really need another Dreu people? no offense Dreu, hehehe) This was, of course, after I pointed out it was a loophole and decided to address it. To answer your other questions, nobody is saying people cannot support Talossa and/or make sites, we just want to make it clear what represents Talossa in offiical capacity and what is a fansite. Not a hard concept. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why it evades you so.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jan 31, 2009 10:21:22 GMT -6
On the KOT.net it says "check out the Kingdom's Forum." That alone gives it such status and it is being run by a member of the government. Well, no, it doesn't. A privately owned entity being utilised by a public agency doesn't somehow thereby become public (except in Communist Russia...in Communist Russia, Talossa eat YOU!). It absolutely doesn't matter that the private owner is a government member. It remains a sub-contractor. A legally safe way of making this link clear would be to add a clause to this Bill requiring that sub-contracted websites notate themselves as such...for INSTANCE, the words could be: "This private website is an officially-licensed organ of the government of the Kingdom of Talossa."
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Post by Cody Ellsworth on Jan 31, 2009 13:38:57 GMT -6
I don't think it's irrelevant at all. It just goes to show you that not everything deemed "official" turns out all that great. I'm just hoping that the people supporting this also have the backbone to actually use the potential sources to let people know about Talossa. If not, it's a damn shame. I honestly don't know what you mean. I didn't even know there was a loophole until like two days ago. So I wasn't exploiting anything. I was merely doing what I thought was right for Talossa. Why no one can see that is beyond me. Why thank you sir, but as far as people not realizing it's not official doesn't make sense. It was the first thing I typed. So if they don't get to that point, they didn't read anything at all. This is also equally applicable to an official site! If they don't realize my myspace page is unofficial, how on Earth are they going to realize that anything else is official?? Okay, so let me respond to this mess in one go. The loophole was discovered, you made the choice to continue to exploit rather than work with the government to fix it. That says VOLUMES about you. Here is a screen shot of your page: i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq287/VitoOliver/Picture2.pngThe first thing it does is direct people to KOT.net, in my experience, people would run along over to the KOT net (being as most people don't actually read Myspace profiles anyway) thus giving to the illusion it is official. That being said, you show me ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that would allow people to make pages in its name without first asking those people to ask for permission. Show me, I'll eagerly await. Nobody said everything that is "official" turned out great and your page certainly does not support this notion. But, the possibility of a great page that is unofficial coming to light is addressed. If someone makes a kick ass page, the government may just say "hey keep running it." If the government for any reason says "we'd rather not" the choice then is to hand over the page or to delete it. (or put in noticeable font, which is absent from your page, it is not an official talossan page.) Finally, you are a perspective citizen, you are not a citizen yet, it could still be blocked. Instead of working *with* the government when a problem was pointing out (i.e. the loophole) your exact response is: I <3 loopholes. Basically, you found out it was a loophole and made the choice to continue to exploit it while being smug that you didn't break a law and you enjoyed the fact this happened. (sidenote, do we really need another Dreu people? no offense Dreu, hehehe) This was, of course, after I pointed out it was a loophole and decided to address it. To answer your other questions, nobody is saying people cannot support Talossa and/or make sites, we just want to make it clear what represents Talossa in offiical capacity and what is a fansite. Not a hard concept. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why it evades you so. You know what's funny? I just typed like loads of stuff and realized it didn't even matter. Neither one of us are going to agree. I will say this though. As far as me saying the "I <3 loopholes" thing - doesn't that seem really unserious? I actually said this after learning from Lord Hooligan that there was no problem with what I was doing. I mean, I NEVER use the *<3* symbol in the first place! So just to be clear and totally honest, I was just kidding. Now that my friend (John McCain voice), is irrelevant. I understand everything you're saying, I just with you would at least try to hear me out. But yeah, I didn't even expect that little myspace message to be a big deal at all. I feel that things are being blown way out of proportion. The difference between Talossa needing promoters and big nations needing them... Yeah, that's kinda self-explanatory. (USA population = 300 mil, I think? Talossa about 120 people total?) lol. I realize there are smaller countries but I think you get my point. Then please, tell me what else I can do to make it clear enough for people to realize it's not an official site other than saying it's not in the first sentence of the page? I'm not trying to be an ass when I ask this question either, I'm being serious. I realize it sounds rather sarcastic but I couldn't word it other wise. One more thing. You can reply and I'll read it for sure, but I'm not posting again unless I feel it's absolutely necessary (other than to my last question about that else I can do to make it seem less official). But I'm going to continue to run this myspace for Talossa. Whether it's a loophole or not (which it isn't since it's unofficial). If it'll actually make a difference for Talossa though... Me not know! I hope that you pass this. Because as I've said already, I do agree with it. I think there's been more misunderstandings than you realize. I mean, we are communicating over the internet after all. No hard feelings ok, Viteu? I think we were both doing what we thought was right. Which in the end I guess is an opinion? Good luck to ya.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2009 21:07:14 GMT -6
On the KOT.net it says "check out the Kingdom's Forum." That alone gives it such status and it is being run by a member of the government. Well, no, it doesn't. A privately owned entity being utilised by a public agency doesn't somehow thereby become public (except in Communist Russia...in Communist Russia, Talossa eat YOU!). It absolutely doesn't matter that the private owner is a government member. It remains a sub-contractor. A legally safe way of making this link clear would be to add a clause to this Bill requiring that sub-contracted websites notate themselves as such...for INSTANCE, the words could be: "This private website is an officially-licensed organ of the government of the Kingdom of Talossa." Incorrect, the Ziu has passed legislation about Witt, therefore, official.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2009 21:10:26 GMT -6
Okay, so let me respond to this mess in one go. The loophole was discovered, you made the choice to continue to exploit rather than work with the government to fix it. That says VOLUMES about you. Here is a screen shot of your page: i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq287/VitoOliver/Picture2.pngThe first thing it does is direct people to KOT.net, in my experience, people would run along over to the KOT net (being as most people don't actually read Myspace profiles anyway) thus giving to the illusion it is official. That being said, you show me ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that would allow people to make pages in its name without first asking those people to ask for permission. Show me, I'll eagerly await. Nobody said everything that is "official" turned out great and your page certainly does not support this notion. But, the possibility of a great page that is unofficial coming to light is addressed. If someone makes a kick ass page, the government may just say "hey keep running it." If the government for any reason says "we'd rather not" the choice then is to hand over the page or to delete it. (or put in noticeable font, which is absent from your page, it is not an official talossan page.) Finally, you are a perspective citizen, you are not a citizen yet, it could still be blocked. Instead of working *with* the government when a problem was pointing out (i.e. the loophole) your exact response is: I <3 loopholes. Basically, you found out it was a loophole and made the choice to continue to exploit it while being smug that you didn't break a law and you enjoyed the fact this happened. (sidenote, do we really need another Dreu people? no offense Dreu, hehehe) This was, of course, after I pointed out it was a loophole and decided to address it. To answer your other questions, nobody is saying people cannot support Talossa and/or make sites, we just want to make it clear what represents Talossa in offiical capacity and what is a fansite. Not a hard concept. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why it evades you so. You know what's funny? I just typed like loads of stuff and realized it didn't even matter. Neither one of us are going to agree. I will say this though. As far as me saying the "I <3 loopholes" thing - doesn't that seem really unserious? I actually said this after learning from Lord Hooligan that there was no problem with what I was doing. I mean, I NEVER use the *<3* symbol in the first place! So just to be clear and totally honest, I was just kidding. Now that my friend (John McCain voice), is irrelevant. I understand everything you're saying, I just with you would at least try to hear me out. But yeah, I didn't even expect that little myspace message to be a big deal at all. I feel that things are being blown way out of proportion. The difference between Talossa needing promoters and big nations needing them... Yeah, that's kinda self-explanatory. (USA population = 300 mil, I think? Talossa about 120 people total?) lol. I realize there are smaller countries but I think you get my point. Then please, tell me what else I can do to make it clear enough for people to realize it's not an official site other than saying it's not in the first sentence of the page? I'm not trying to be an ass when I ask this question either, I'm being serious. I realize it sounds rather sarcastic but I couldn't word it other wise. One more thing. You can reply and I'll read it for sure, but I'm not posting again unless I feel it's absolutely necessary (other than to my last question about that else I can do to make it seem less official). But I'm going to continue to run this myspace for Talossa. Whether it's a loophole or not (which it isn't since it's unofficial). If it'll actually make a difference for Talossa though... Me not know! I hope that you pass this. Because as I've said already, I do agree with it. I think there's been more misunderstandings than you realize. I mean, we are communicating over the internet after all. No hard feelings ok, Viteu? I think we were both doing what we thought was right. Which in the end I guess is an opinion? Good luck to ya. Unfortunately, I cannot take serious you backpedaling on the "<3" nonsense. You made your stance on it perfectly clear and when asked about the site, your response was for me to cite law. You made no attempt to work with the government. At this point, I do not know whether or not I should just classify you as another Dreu. If you want to support Talossa, try not pissing people off before you are even granted citizenship. That might be a step in the right direction. You know, my screenshot shows that it is not obvious enough to be a mere fansite. Just because Talossa has a small population does not make it any less of a country (as your previous post may imply.) This law is necessary and I thank you for bringing the need for it to light, I just wish it would have been under difference circumstances.
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Post by Owen Edwards on Jan 31, 2009 22:02:26 GMT -6
Incorrect, the Ziu has passed legislation about Witt, therefore, official. I presume you're not suggesting that simply because the Ziu has passed legislation about its effective management of a privately owned entity, that makes the board the actual 'property' of Talossa. I would argue public ownership (or in the case of the statements of individuals representing the public, thereby representing devolved public will) is plainly the grounds for a NATION, a real live nation, to claim something as "official" on its behalf. Do correct me if I'm wrong - as far as I know, KoT.net and talossa.proboards32.com are not registered to either a recognised governing entity, nor even a form of commercial/charitable organisation representing the nation). I can think of two Bills that have special relevance to this discussion: 28RZ15 and 35RZ2. The former, defining the diminutive form of Wittenberg, does utilise the term "official", but with specific reference to the official terminology for something. It's plain (to me) that simply deciding on official terminology for something, whatever its relation to the decision makers, does not actually make the THING ITSELF property of the decision makers. So that would invalidate 28RZ15 as an example of Witt being a public utility (though its odd phraseology and confused implicit ideas don't help the matter). 35RZ2 takes the same confused implict ideas as to how a privately-owned entity is to be discussed (in this case this very board; 28RZ15 was Witt 6, so several owners ago). However, it still makes no statements as to the status of Witt as a public utility; only as something very beneficial to the people of Talossa. The word "official" certainly never comes up. The effective implication is there is some sort of contractual agreement between the private owner of Witt and the government of Talossa. However, it MUST be made clear here that the PRIVATE owner of Witt is not thereby accountable to the people of Talossa in any legal sense, only, perhaps, in Talossan legal terms, to the Government of His Majesty. The Government is, I would say, accountable to the people for what occurs regarding the officially licensed website and forum, but that's difference. So therein lies the difference. It's an officially licensed product. When a company wins the license to produce something - say, the movie of a book, or the miniatures, or the spin-off books of a TV series - it doesn't purport to be the exact same entity as the original creators. And certainly we wouldn't put it in terms of the Government being the official SPONSOR of Witt, because this would simplify and indeed damage the complex, perhaps unique situation we have. Hence my suggestion that I would need a more watertight set of clauses to support a law that is closing a loophole... (and no Vito, it's plain this newbie wasn't doing anything malicious, not everyone's out to freakin get you/us)
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Post by Cody Ellsworth on Feb 1, 2009 2:09:54 GMT -6
You're mad? lol
Why are you mad? Like I've said, you need to lighten up and not take things so seriously. As far as whatever a drue is, I don't even care. Humans were programmed to label things, so label away my friend. Besides, I've never been bothered by petty insults anyways. I've said all I could say and it hasn't seemed to put forth any progress. There's really no other way to show people that my site isn't official other than saying it (which I clearly have...), or putting some blinking ads all over letting them know that. If they don't get to the point where it says it isn't, they didn't read anything at all... So does any of this pointless debating mean anything? Nope, not all. Wasted some valuable time in our lives.
And I think it's shameful that you would try to say that I'm undermining the greatness of Talossa. It further proves how desperate you are to prove your point. There's a need for more citizens to expand Talossa, that was all I was implying, and you know it.
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Capt. Sir Mick Preston
Capitán of the Zouaves
Posts: 6,511
Talossan Since: 9-21-2006
Knight Since: 10-12-2010
Motto: Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
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Post by Capt. Sir Mick Preston on Feb 1, 2009 10:17:18 GMT -6
Alright, everyone take a step away from your keyboards.
Chill out, and take a moment.
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Post by Cody Ellsworth on Feb 1, 2009 10:33:05 GMT -6
Thank you for your concern, Captain.
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Vit Caçeir
"I hated being AG so much I fled as far from it as literally possible."
Posts: 810
Talossan Since: 11-19-2007
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Post by Vit Caçeir on Feb 1, 2009 11:12:26 GMT -6
Question---
The Republic makes use of the name "Talossa". As does Ben's almost nonexistant "Other Talossa", as brought up by S:reu Larsen. Now I could honestly care less about Ben's little pretend Talossa, but the Republic is a functioning state, regardless of its current de jure status.
By enacting this bill, what sort of affect, if any at all, would it have upon our relations with the Republic? Would we request that they become an "unofficial" website under the jurisdiction of a Royal Ministry?
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Post by Owen Edwards on Feb 1, 2009 12:38:30 GMT -6
Whilst that would be a marvellous solution to the whole unity issue...
No. If we take as our stance that they are secessors, they are not misrepresenting themselves as an official organ of the Kingdom.
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Brad Holmes
Cunstaval to Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Atatürkey, and flying by the seat of my RUMP
Posts: 1,014
Talossan Since: 3-16-2006
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Post by Brad Holmes on Feb 1, 2009 13:26:23 GMT -6
Brad, if you wouldn't mind writing up a draft. I believe your bill writing skills are more finally tuned than mine. Sure thing. I'll aim for tomorrow. Aim is a bit off at the moment. Still working.
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Brad Holmes
Cunstaval to Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Atatürkey, and flying by the seat of my RUMP
Posts: 1,014
Talossan Since: 3-16-2006
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Post by Brad Holmes on Feb 1, 2009 15:18:14 GMT -6
The I Can't Believe It's Not A Talossa Website Act
WHEREAS; Talossa relies heavily on her many citizens to act as a face of the Kingdom;
WHEREAS; the Kingdom of Talossa must work to protect itself from persons acting in the name of Talossa on the Internet;
WHEREAS; any Prospective citizens or visitors could stumble upon fake or bogus information on random websites, turning them away or just terribly confusing them;
WHEREAS; a list of known fake or bogus sites should be maintained as an aid to alleviate and prevent aforementioned confusion;
WHEREAS; due to the advent of online social networking, pages on said sites should be set up in official capacity by an assigned Ministry within the government;
THEREFORE; the Ziu hereby requires that any and all official or officially-sanctioned websites, social networking pages, online Embassies, and any other future form of Internet group be run by an assigned Ministry from the Prime Minister, assigned member of the government, or private citizens, when explicit permission is granted by the Prime Minister;
THEREFORE; non-government sanctioned web sites in relation to Talossa, including social networking sites and profile names, must have clear and visible text that says the page is an UNOFFICIAL website;
THEREFORE; it is up to the Prime Minister or his delegate to decide and outline what constitutes “clear and visible” and determine any violations;
THEREFORE; the Prime Minister or his delegate shall monitor both official and unofficial Talossan websites, contact the owner as needed, and maintain a public list of official and bogus or fake sites as they are brought to the government’s attention;
THEREFORE; the Government of Talossa has the right to require the transfer of a website or a deletion of website if it is not made clear, within the government’s definition, that the existing site is UNOFFICIAL;
THEREFORE; violations of this Act may be considered acts of sedition or treason, punishable by warnings, fines, or revocation of citizenship.
THEREFORE; Provincal websites shall be licensed by their respective governments under the same provisions of this Act.
Noi urent q'estadra sa Viteu Toctviac'hteir – MC, PP Brad Holmes – Senator (Atatürk)
EDIT: Addition of profile names in the 2nd THEREFORE clause.
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