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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 12:00:42 GMT -6
Okay, here I must chime in. I am certain that it is a very bad idea for children to drink alcohol. I am also certain that it is a very bad idea for adults to drink to excess. HOWEVER, that is far from the point here, and to equate not legislating morality with encouraging bad behavior is disingenuous.
Morality is not something that should -- or, I'd argue, can -- be created by force (i.e. by governments). Self-destructive behavior is, despite its inherent silliness, the right of all free entities.
(I do admit to there being a difference between "free entity" as it relates to "adult v. child" intellect. However, that's a very sticky and difficult subject, and I think we can handle the present considerations without necessarily tackling it. We trust parents with the everyday safety of their children, and we must trust them with the alcohol question as well.)
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 21, 2009 12:22:40 GMT -6
unfortunately, Danielo, there are many parents who shouldn't be trusted. rly. Damn, Just imagine what would be if there were no law making age borders beetween "can drink" and "cannot drink"! "Morality is not something that should -- or, I'd argue, can -- be created by force (i.e. by governments)." : first.that's not a philosopfic question of morality. don't forget about alcohol effect on health and intellect of children (and adults too, u know!). Must government care about the citizen's health or not? or hell what should it do? secondly. why are you so strongly against? i just cant understand. don't you think it will harm somebody if that bill will be passed? it cannot hurt, it just can be helpful.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 13:27:12 GMT -6
I could, were there time, cite thousands of cases in which parents violate the trust and well-being of their children. I could cite thousands of ways in which individuals act against their own well-being. It is impossible for a government to protect its citizens from itself.
I am strongly against this because I consider personal liberty to be absolute -- and yes, I mean 100% ABSOLUTE. A government should exist solely and completely to protect individuals from harm by other individuals, and that is all. It cannot, and should not, attempt to protect individuals from self-destruction.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 21, 2009 13:32:40 GMT -6
ok. i understand your position. and if no one here supports me, i give in. conglaturations. haha
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 13:42:10 GMT -6
In all honesty Alexandreu, I am most likely in the minority here. I think you should press forward, and see how the group concludes! You're doing a fine job, and I applaud your active participation in the Ziu.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 21, 2009 13:55:15 GMT -6
thank you wery much!! to press forward, i would my position to be more clear. i.m FOR the total freedom of individuality of course. but look: most teens think that drinking is COOL. because no one tells them its bad. parents? parents cant even imagine their child drinks. other teens tell the child: why wont you drink with us? its cool! or youre afraid of your mummy?? and what sais government? nothing. do everything you want, everything you.re said to do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2009 13:58:10 GMT -6
I agree very much with the spirit of your argument. However, I support private programs and education for such things, as opposed to governmental stipulation.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 21, 2009 13:59:41 GMT -6
we have to make teens or even adults understand: alco is NEGATIVE! but if a man decides, clear and sane, that "i want drink and i will, thats my decision".. here we must stop. that.s his freedom and his decision.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 21, 2009 14:01:02 GMT -6
danielo: private programs are too well
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 21, 2009 14:16:55 GMT -6
but governmental stimulation is effective and must be used. actually, the aim of the project is to informate about negative sides of early drinking, and psychological insist. teens are impressive, and other teens and adults use it, saying: hey, drink with me big boy!. and we must say them: think twice before start drinking. think about what it can lead too. better to prevent them to start than to use then individual programs to cure alcoholic teens.
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Brad Holmes
Cunstaval to Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Atatürkey, and flying by the seat of my RUMP
Posts: 1,014
Talossan Since: 3-16-2006
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Post by Brad Holmes on Jul 22, 2009 11:17:06 GMT -6
Alexandreu,
I agree, alcohol should be a regulated substance, just like it already is in most countries across the globe.
The main problem with establishing a uniform drinking age (or a range of ages as you're attempting) in Talossa is that a significant number of citizens physically live in countries in which the drinking age varies from country to country. And if you travel somewhere with a higher age limit, just because your a citizen of a country with a lower age limit does not mean you can drink in the country you're visiting.
Your law would definitely be in contradiction to the laws of Wisconsin and the United States, to which we, as Talossans, are not necessarily bound but are expected to comply with while on Talossan soil. It doesn't make any sense to pass this law.
The only way I'll support anything regarding a minimum drinking age is if the law states something like this: The minimum drinking age is established by the country in which a citizen physically resides or is physically present.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 22, 2009 11:43:09 GMT -6
"3. This freedom of drinking alcohol is set to all Talossans older the said ages and in said measures only if the laws of the country the citizen lives in geographically allow it to be so." <-- I tired to say again and again that i have stated about such a situation. But I find your formulation well too. By this formulation i meant that: In country A the level to BUY alcohol is for example 22 yrs, in Talossa, as I said in the project, 19. The Talossan resides in country A, so he has to respect country A's law. other situation: In country B the level is for example 14 yrs, as in Talossa - 19. Citizen resides in country B. so he has to respect the Talossan law and he can buy alcohol only if he is over 19 yrs. Is it clear?)
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Brad Holmes
Cunstaval to Maritiimi-Maxhestic
Atatürkey, and flying by the seat of my RUMP
Posts: 1,014
Talossan Since: 3-16-2006
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Post by Brad Holmes on Jul 22, 2009 12:15:58 GMT -6
"3. This freedom of drinking alcohol is set to all Talossans older the said ages and in said measures only if the laws of the country the citizen lives in geographically allow it to be so." <-- I tired to say again and again that i have stated about such a situation. But I find your formulation well too. By this formulation i meant that: In country A the level to BUY alcohol is for example 22 yrs, in Talossa, as I said in the project, 19. The Talossan resides in country A, so he has to respect country A's law. other situation: In country B the level is for example 14 yrs, as in Talossa - 19. Citizen resides in country B. so he has to respect the Talossan law and he can buy alcohol only if he is over 19 yrs. Is it clear?) It's clear, but situation B is bogus, not to mention completely unenforceable. I'm American, the age here is 21. But I could easily have purchased alcohol when I was in England at 18. And legally, I should have been able to. And even if an American cop had been watching me and knows I was only 18, he has absolutely no jurisdiction as we're on foreign soil. Let's say your system is in place. That same American cop can now violate the sovereignty of another country and prosecute me under American law? Nope. Really bad idea. Or let's say that there are no witnesses to the 19 year old Talossan legally purchasing alcohol in the country with a age limit of 14. The Talossan is in complete defiance of Talossan law, in fact he revels in the fact that he is stepping outside of the box. How would you enforce the law? It can't be done.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 22, 2009 12:21:21 GMT -6
enforcing of the law is really difficult. here I'm agree with you. The enforcing of such laws have been always difficult. you know I can even agree with formulation you've cited: The minimum drinking age is established by the country in which a citizen physically resides or is physically present.
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Post by Alèx Soleighlfred on Jul 22, 2009 12:24:00 GMT -6
but in fact, we could nevertheless note the _our_ recommended age census
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