The Talossan Legion of Honour Act

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

As an unfortunate point of order, Ministreu, you are not allowed to submit bills. Only members of the Ziu or the King are permitted to do so. I have no doubt you will shortly receive Cosa seats, but just FYI.

EDIT: Org.IX.2: "Any Member of the Cosâ, or Senator, or the King, shall have the right to submit legislative proposals and bills to the Secretary of State for consideration by the Ziu according to the procedures specified in this article."

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Also, I would point out that I think this is an unnecessary honor. I believe that the need for it has been filled in previous cases with granted peerages. For instance, the Duc de Metairia received l'Urðeri dal Campagna Zuerïas Coneschti for his service during the Cone War.

[Cole Schneider]

I think this looks very good. How ever... I propose that in the case of the first and second Degree's

said:

1. The First Degree - Legionnaire - The lowest degree of the Legion of Honour, may be awarded by the Minister of Defence for any act of heroism or extraordinary performance of military duties. The recipient shall be entitled to wear a ribbon of green, white and red with the Ministry of Defence Coat of Arms in the center. The medal form of this award shall be the same ribbon suspending a gold victory cross. Recipients are entitled to use the post-nominal, "MLH" or "Member of the Talossan Legion of Honour."

2. The Second Degree - Commander - The second degree of the Legion of Honour may be awarded by the Prime Minister for any act of heroism or extraordinary performance of military duties. The recipient shall be entitled to wear the ribbon of the First Degree with a gold frame. The medal shall be the same as in the first degree and recipient shall be entitled to use the post-nominal "CLH" or "Commander of the Talossan Legion of Honour."

The King (and in the case of the first degree, the prime minister too) should have the power to bestow upon a personnel the lower degree even if the entitled giver sees it not fit to do so, but the personnel has not reached the level that this new giver has the main power to bestow.

Wow, i worded that weird... if you cant figure it out ill gladly try and explain.

[Deleted]

It may be unnecessary, I'm just throwing the idea out there.

While I realize I, in my capacity of Minister of Defence cannot submit bills, I affixed my cabinet position pursuant to 32RZ13 (and while anticipating a seat or two in the Cosa).

Anyway, like I said, is it needed? Maybe not. I think the biggest draws to Talossa for many are the ease in which one may participate in the government, the nobility and all of those other things that the "average Joe" maybe wants to try their hand in.

While we have a military, presently, it is without any real rewards on its own. Why bother enlisting when you can easily be a member of the Cosa and get to submit and pass some really snazzy legislation.

My objective, for recruiting purposes mainly, is to show others that the military, as in times of some of our more famous figures like Napoleon, is a perfectly legitimate way to contribute to Talossan Society and indeed it carries with it the potential for great rewards for service.

Otherwise, I fear, our military will forever be small in size, limited in influence and worse yet, lacking motivation.

That is my intent, to separate the military rewards system from that of the civilian population. Naturally, it in no way limits the power of the King, but it sets a system up just for promoting military participation.

That is my intent, and if enough of my colleagues feel it to be misguided, I will, as with any other legislation, withdraw it from consideration.

[Cole Schneider]

I personally feel that this should not be repealed. Course its not actually up for proposition because you cant legally do this... but at the soonest moment that you can i hope that you put this back up for consideration.

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

The only concern I have is with the name of the Highest Honor. The Third Degree - Knight - Would that cause confusion with those that have been awarded the title of Knight through the Peerage system?

How would it be designated in one's name and honorifics?

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

I understand you are in the Cabinet, Ministreu, it is only that Cabinet members do not by virtue of their positions have the authority to submit bills to the Hopper. Only members of the Ziu and the King. This is a relatively noncontroversial bill, though, so I don't think it's so vitally important. If one of the members of the minority parties were to protest, then you would have to resubmit in a couple of days when you receive your seats, but they aren't going to do that (probably, anyway).

I understand your intent, but I fear that the military's regulations and rules are growing quite out of pace with the military itself or its current needs. Furthermore, in our country we already have a huge amount of upper-level decorations, and while separating the military from the civilians in that wise might be sort of good, the undesirability of a further level of decorations that will never be used is too great.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2008 21:55:38 GMT -6 Sir Alexandreu Davinescu said:

I understand you are in the Cabinet, Ministreu, it is only that Cabinet members do not by virtue of their positions have the authority to submit bills to the Hopper. Only members of the Ziu and the King. This is a relatively noncontroversial bill, though, so I don't think it's so vitally important. If one of the members of the minority parties were to protest, then you would have to resubmit in a couple of days when you receive your seats, but they aren't going to do that (probably, anyway).

I understand your intent, but I fear that the military's regulations and rules are growing quite out of pace with the military itself or its current needs. Furthermore, in our country we already have a huge amount of upper-level decorations, and while separating the military from the civilians in that wise might be sort of good, the undesirability of a further level of decorations that will never be used is too great.

Nor did I claim that by virtue of my office I could propose legislation, however, as I said earlier, in anticipation of Cosa seats and through the "I want a limousine, damnit" act I affixed my title as it was being done on behalf of the ministry. I realize it isn't legal until I have the seats, I was just throwing it out there.

And yes, military regulation IS growing out of pace with the military. Because presently, we have 4 active members of that military and I am trying to increase that. The more structure the military has, the more potential for reward, the more people may consider signing up.

Presently, there is no reason to join the military.

If you guys don't want more regulations to solidify the position of the military let me know right now, today, because then I am not the person for this job and my resignation will be tendered by the end of the day.

I am getting very tired of the military getting battered for "not doing enough" and then getting hit for there being too much regulation and pomp and circumstance.

If we are going to sit around and wait for people to flock to the military to create these regulations, we are going to be waiting for a very, very long time.

The bill is withdrawn and my irritation registered.

T.M. Asmourescu, M. Defence

[Capt. Sir Mick Preston]

In all honesty?

I would like to think it's the SoS's prerogative to make the call if someone has standing to submit a bill or not.

While technically correct, Senator Davis, I think a bit of lee-way could be given since we just had a General Election.

Had this occurred after the first seating of the 39th Cosa, then it would be a different story.

[Sir Alexandreu Davinescu]

Oct 20, 2008 7:17:24 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

Nor did I claim that by virtue of my office I could propose legislation, however, as I said earlier, in anticipation of Cosa seats and through the "I want a limousine, damnit" act I affixed my title as it was being done on behalf of the ministry. I realize it isn't legal until I have the seats, I was just throwing it out there.

Sure, and I don't anticipate it being a problem and wasn't asking you to withdraw it. I was just offering it up as an FYI. As I said, this is a noncontroversial bill and I doubt anyone will challenge it later based on that fact. I just wanted to comment on that as a point of order, I wasn't attacking you personally.

Oct 20, 2008 7:17:24 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

And yes, military regulation IS growing out of pace with the military. Because presently, we have 4 active members of that military and I am trying to increase that. The more structure the military has, the more potential for reward, the more people may consider signing up.

Presently, there is no reason to join the military.

If you guys don't want more regulations to solidify the position of the military let me know right now, today, because then I am not the person for this job and my resignation will be tendered by the end of the day.

I think you may be taking my criticism a bit too personally. Just because I find fault with this particular bill shouldn't imply I am saying you are doing a poor job, should it? I seriously would not want you to do what you propose, Tim, and I'm sorry I appear to have fumbled my comments so badly as to lead to you being angry.

Oct 20, 2008 7:17:24 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

I am getting very tired of the military getting battered for "not doing enough" and then getting hit for there being too much regulation and pomp and circumstance.

If we are going to sit around and wait for people to flock to the military to create these regulations, we are going to be waiting for a very, very long time.

The bill is withdrawn and my irritation registered.

T.M. Asmourescu, M. Defence

Ministreu, when you proposed the BOHICA Act to expand military regulations with regard to discharges, I supported it and told you I would vote for it. When you proposed the Military Reserve Reformation Act to expand military regulations with regard to the reserves, I voiced no criticism since I found no fault. When you proposed the Title Protection Act which also partially expanded military regulations with regard to ranks, I provided multiple suggested improvements to help make it better. And since my induction into the ranks, I have launched several threads promoting the Zuoaves in an effort to recruit and been an active officer. The military of Talossa has no better friend than this particular pacifist posting, I assure you.

So when I tell you that I think that this particular bill seems extraneous to me, it is not an attack on overall military regulations. I meant no more than I said: this massive increase in such a short time might be unwarranted, and this particular increase increases our already top-heavy honours system in the country.

Please do not offer your resignation over a moment of disagreement on a single issue, as you have been an exemplary head of Defense. I sincerely apologize if I have offended you in any way.

Oct 20, 2008 7:59:11 GMT -6 Capt. Sir Mick Preston said:

In all honesty?

I would like to think it's the SoS's prerogative to make the call if someone has standing to submit a bill or not.

While technically correct, Senator Davis, I think a bit of lee-way could be given since we just had a General Election.

Had this occurred after the first seating of the 39th Cosa, then it would be a different story.

Of course you are free to accept or reject the bill. And nowhere did I call for the bill to be withdrawn, S:reu SoS. I just wanted to remind people of this fact, since there are many observers in the Ziu and I thought the Ministreu might himself be unaware.

[Deleted]

Alex, I hope you don't think I took issue with your criticism of a particular bill....

As I said, if you guys didn't like it, I would withdraw it, it was just an idea. And afterall, that is what the hopper is for.

MY issue was with the statement

I understand your intent, but I fear that the military's regulations and rules are growing quite out of pace with the military itself or its current needs.

I have prepared 2 new forms for the military's use, and am about 25 pages into the complete military regulation which I have been working on since I was only holding the office on an interim basis.

The military cannot expand without a system in place. Other things I am working on include ID cards for members of the military. I'm investing quite a bit of time into the ministry.

So I hope you can understand that when someone else tells me that the regulations are out-pacing the needs of the service, I am going to take it personally.

To me, I felt that my efforts were no more "ahead of the game" than any action by the Cosa.

After all, we have an entire legal system filled with things that may never come up, but are in place should they ever.

Likewise the military has uniform requirements, a very limited justice system that more or less piggy backs the High Cort, a system of discharges, terms of enlistment and a series of military awards. All of my efforts are geared toward increasing the number of ACTIVE military members.

Again, if you disagree with this approach, I encourage that, this is what the hopper is for. I can tweak or altogether withdraw legislation.

But, if, as a Senator, a member of my own party and and Officer of the Talossan military you wish to tell me that we are writing too many regulations, then it is time to look for a new Minister of Defence.

[Cole Schneider]

Oct 20, 2008 7:17:24 GMT -6 Adm. T.M. Asmourescu, O. Ben. said:

Presently, we have 4 active members of that military and I am trying to increase that. The more structure the military has, the more potential for reward, the more people may consider signing up.

If we are going to sit around and wait for people to flock to the military to create these regulations, we are going to be waiting for a very, very long time.

I would suggest a draft system. Maybe not to be put into action immediately, but to be sure that in times of war we do not have to squabble to form this draft system. Thus preventing our kingdoms destruction because we do not have enough personnel to keep the front lines hot.

[EM Vürinalt]

Minister Asmourescu,
Are you proposing somewhat of the equivalent of the Talossan Medal of Honour?

I like the idea of making the military more structured and with a higher opportunity for promotion and award as you mentioned, however, I think if we want to add medals we can simply ammend the Military Honours Act.

This idea makes sense. However, I am not too fond of the idea of adding yet another set of abbreviations for post-nominal credentials. If you want this to be militarily specific, I would set it up as something akin to a military fraternity of great honour and prestige to be a part of. This could be a structured fraternity with specific positions and obligations for each member and could add a level of depth and comradeship amongst members from different branches.

~Vürinalt

[Deleted]

That was kind of what I was going for, actually, Mataiwos....

But we'll revisit the issue later, there is much on the plate for the military in terms of regulations. We'll address our equivalent of the Medal of Honour at a later time.

You know, I don't form enough committees, maybe this Cosa we'll get a few together and work on something everybody can enjoy.